Guadalupian Mass Extinction

[Balaur]

As there is a debate wether or not the asteroid caused the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs, I am curious about a mass extinction event that occured between the Early and Middle Permian. All I know it that, and it had such a profound effect on the life, that life didn't fully recover before the Great Dying.

I need help, and also will bring light to some people about a time in history (the Permian) when something bad was going on.

Any help is always appreciated. 

[Balaur]

Awww... the Permian extinctionS don't get any attention? Mystery is still out! 

[SBell]

Awww... the Permian extinctionS don't get any attention? Mystery is still out! 

I think it's because there's not really much to say--things went extinct. Then things evolved. Then a lot of things went extinct.  Then more things evolved. Then dinosaurs and mammals evolved. Then another big event of dying things happened. etc. 

[Balaur]

Awww... the Permian extinctionS don't get any attention? Mystery is still out! 

I think it's because there's not really much to say--things went extinct. Then things evolved. Then a lot of things went extinct.  Then more things evolved. Then dinosaurs and mammals evolved. Then another big event of dying things happened. etc.

I mean that I am curious about what happened in the mid Permian when a mass extinction occured, and what effect it had on the Great Dying, because life didn't fully recover from the Guadalupian extinction when the Great Dying occured. I need more info. All I know is stated in my first post.

We cannot afford an extinction gap! 

[wings]

The Permian-Triassic extinction is kind of special due to its severity. It was estimated this event actually wipes out about 96% of the marine species. It was a lengthy episode as well, it spans approximately 8 million years of the final two stages of the Permian and clearly not a sudden event (like a meteorite impact). However, there were a great number of environmental stresses controlling the end of the Permian. We have a large marine regression which decreased the shallow marine shelves and revealed these to erosion. Evaporite deposition in a number of localities indicates instability of climate at the end of Permian (rapid warming). Oxygen level has gone down from 30% to 15% due to the oxidation of organic matter from marine regression. Lastly at the end of the Permian period, we have one of the largest eruptions of flood basalts (Siberian traps), and subsequently released an enormous amount of carbon dioxide and sulfur into the atmosphere. In addition, there is evidence that indicates a massive overturn of the oceans which poisoned the surface waters with high concentration of carbon dioxide (Knoll et al. 1996). 

[amargasaurus cazaui]

The Permian-Triassic extinction is kind of special due to its severity. It was estimated this event actually wipes out about 96% of the marine species. It was a lengthy episode as well, it spans approximately 8 million years of the final two stages of the Permian and clearly not a sudden event (like a meteorite impact). However, there were a great number of environmental stresses controlling the end of the Permian. We have a large marine regression which decreased the shallow marine shelves and revealed these to erosion. Evaporite deposition in a number of localities indicates instability of climate at the end of Permian (rapid warming). Oxygen level has gone down from 30% to 15% due to the oxidation of organic matter from marine regression. Lastly at the end of the Permian period, we have one of the largest eruptions of flood basalts (Siberian traps), and subsequently released an enormous amount of carbon dioxide and sulfur into the atmosphere. In addition, there is evidence that indicates a massive overturn of the oceans which poisoned the surface waters with high concentration of carbon dioxide (Knoll et al. 1996).

Ha I already have one foot in a grave, discussing another extinction event in another thread, but I will toss out the same thing Wings said....the Siberian traps were making things a mess roughly the same time as the Permian extinction took place, and it is worth a second very hard look when you compare the K-P event and the Deccan traps, in context. Some scientists place some degree of emphasis on noting that particular parallel

[wings]

  Ha I already have one foot in a grave, discussing another extinction event in another thread, but I will toss out the same thing Wings said....the Siberian traps were making things a mess roughly the same time as the Permian extinction took place, and it is worth a second very hard look when you compare the K-P event and the Deccan traps, in context. Some scientists place some degree of emphasis on noting that particular parallel

Without being argumentative, there are differences in both events (I think...). One of the key elements appear to be whether these extinctions are gradual or sudden. In the Permian extinction it was clearly gradual (not sure about the exact references for this since these were just class notes) but I'm not so sure about the Cretaceous extinction, there are conflicting evidences (see references from my last post on the K-Pg extinction thread, there are a few papers there) on whether this is a gradual decline or not. All the reports have shown that those non-avian dinosaur groups are in decline (except for the sauropods which is increasing in diversity...) but none of them seems to be too drastic compare to their earlier evolution history. Perhaps we didn't have enough locations for sampling (it is rather hard to find a location which bears all strata within the Mesozoic period to make this kind of comparison). Unless there is an irrefusable finding about this otherwise it is hard to say whether it is one way or another. Would this be just enough to be push over by the extraterrestrial impact? I don't know and I'm not going to speculate. Also please see http://www.le.ac.uk/gl/ads/SiberianTraps/Documents/White2002-P-Tr-whodunit.pdf for further discussion on the Permian extinction.

[DC]

The Late Permian seems to have a series of extinctions on land before the big one a the end of the Permian.  Are you thinking the Emeishan flood basalt in SW China?  Seems like there is a temporal relation between the events.  It cannot have been good for the land vertebrates.  The problem is there are other bigger basalt floods that do not seem to be associated with mass extinctions.  I find it hard to see that as the sole or root cause.  Asteroids hit periodically but most do not seem to cause mass extinctions.

  The root may be that Pangaea was deadly to planets circulation and magnified the effects of events like flood basalts and asteroids.  What if the single continent configuration itself is toxic, long term to life?  The configuation seems to favor Hypoxia in the ocean and disrupts heat transfer from equator to the poles. 

[Balaur]

The Late Permian seems to have a series of extinctions on land before the big one a the end of the Permian.  Are you thinking the Emeishan flood basalt in SW China?  Seems like there is a temporal relation between the events.  It cannot have been good for the land vertebrates.  The problem is there are other bigger basalt floods that do not seem to be associated with mass extinctions.  I find it hard to see that as the sole or root cause.  Asteroids hit periodically but most do not seem to cause mass extinctions.

  The root may be that Pangaea was deadly to planets circulation and magnified the effects of events like flood basalts and asteroids.  What if the single continent configuration itself is toxic, long term to life?  The configuation seems to favor Hypoxia in the ocean and disrupts heat transfer from equator to the poles.

Yes, I am thinking of the Emeishan Basalt, those where incredible.

[DC]

Emeishan Basalt could be read as the start of the increase in temperature and drop in oxygen that is fatal.  The basalt flows add carbon to atmo and you start getting acide\ rain.  It started the build up of carbon that heats up the planet.  This eventually leads a methane release that drives the temperature up further.  The plant life is effected at high temps chlorophyll breaks down.  Oxygen decreases.   Life may have been restricted to high latitudes and low elevations.   It appears to have been a long process with a series on land extinctions then hypoxia in the ocean and a sudden final marine extinction.       

[Balaur]

Emeishan Basalt could be read as the start of the increase in temperature and drop in oxygen that is fatal.  The basalt flows add carbon to atmo and you start getting acide\ rain.  It started the build up of carbon that heats up the planet.  This eventually leads a methane release that drives the temperature up further.  The plant life is effected at high temps chlorophyll breaks down.  Oxygen decreases.   Life may have been restricted to high latitudes and low elevations.   It appears to have been a long process with a series on land extinctions then hypoxia in the ocean and a sudden final marine extinction.       

I agree. As I said before, it was so severe, that life didn't fully recover when the Great Dying occured. It was probably the main reason The Great Dying was so sevre to.

[DC]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121018141844.htm

Dead tropics from Global warming

[SBell]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121018141844.htm

Dead tropics from Global warming

The article is about the early Triassic, not the mid-Permian.