Bare Minimum Feathers on V-Raptor Toys

[Dinoguy2]

The skeleton is pretty different from a bird. That's why scientists were tricked for so long into thinking dinosaurs were reptile-like. What fossils showing the type of feathers prove is that the outside appearance of birds evolved first (around the dawn of Pennaraptorans) and the internal muscle and skeleton anatomy caught up later (around the dawn of Ornithothoraces; note that even Confuciousornis is more like Microraptor than birds in terms of its skeletal anatomy). That's why Mark Norell said if you looked at a living Velociraptor, you would think it was just a weird bird. You'd be wrong of course, it's not actually a weird bird, but it would LOOK like one which is all that matters for a toy figure. Obviously the skeleton is different. But the external appearance was that of a bird. The evidence proves it. Nothing else to say.

[Megalosaurus]

Don't get upset guys/girls. 

[btb300]

Hi guys! Very interesting points made. Personally I also think attempts at feathered dinosaur figures are somewhat off. However I can also see that acceptance of more birdlike theropods is still not very broad, but some decent toys may help a little. I like the interpretations of Emily Willoughby, do you know about anyone else with similar art? Could you see those as toys?

[fason]

I wish I was sorry to say this but I am running low on patience to "debate" these points with you. You simply ignore everything that is said and then interject your own ideas no matter how contradictory to the evidence they are. But in the spirit of debate I will respond this last time.

Not even close. The reason they think Microraptor couldn't fly is because it had smaller breast muscles and slightly downward pointing shoulders, but this is controversial and some people think Microraptor could fly, though weakly.

but i basically said that
now look at a hawks skeleton or another flying birds skeleton, all the birds have one thing in common, there   compact build WHICH HOUSES MUSCLES TO POWER THEIR WINGS.            , microraptor had a more slim , lizard like build what i meant by this is that it wasnt as thick as a bird was.

The above Microraptor skeleton and illustration is shown in death, in life it would look a lot more compact like this.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j99kSw62d_4/UXqxh2HdpAI/AAAAAAAAAaM/60Yi1ul40Io/s1600/07microraptor3.jpg

Take a look at this ibis skeleton, if anything this is less compact than Microraptor.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/jegcvczi5qj5c0ezlyup.jpg

Even a very compact bird like this Munia Finch isn't any more compact.
http://product-images.highwire.com/5249029/23d68327-a6bf-402b-8c74-e2d5513b1a0a.jpg

If you showed this picture to people who weren't dinosaur experts, and asked them if this is a bird or not, what do you think they'd say? To make them think it was just a bird-like dinosaur, you'd have to exaggerate a few things, like giving it a snarling, scaly lizard head  ,

well the thing is  fossils like this prove what ive been trying to say if you look at just the skeleton without the feathers and imprints  and it shows how different it was to a bird , (dont think i dont see that  the picture doesnt show what fossils of other specimens  show which is a jaw ).

A little paranoid much? The actual fossil is damaged and is missing the tip of the snout.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Microraptor_gui_holotype.png

In phylogenetic nomenclature, no they didn't. Birds still are reptiles just like birds are still dinosaurs and birds are still vertebrates.sorry by reptiles i meant reptilian forms


Yes, you can see the difference between birds and crocodiles. you can see a pretty big difference between dromaeosaurids and crocodiles too. Microraptor looks a lot more like a bird than a crocodile to me.

put wings on and add wing legs  to a young crocodiles skeletons then youll see

Well you're lucky I was very bored today because I should have just told you it wouldn't look anything like a dinosaur.

yeah i was just trying to show velociraptor could have  been bald since we dont  know definately what it would have lived like.

And I was trying to explain that you can't show something that simply isn't true. We actually know an impressive amount about how Velociraptor lived. We know what times of the day it was most active, we know what it ate, and we even know the exact method that it and other large dromaeosaurs used to dispatch their prey.

microraptor had four wings which would have suggested that it glid , why do i say this ? most creatures that glide use more of their body  like a parachute , if microraptor was trying to fly  it wouldnt evolve  four wings and a lighter body type , if it were trying to fly it would have had a more advanced body type  adapted to well flying .

No actually, that was disproved time and again. Microraptor simply lacked any specialization of its hips that would have been necessary in order to hold its legs at an angle where the "leg wings" were actually useful in gliding. Depictions such as this below are not only highly outdated in general but physically impossible.
http://f.tqn.com/y/dinosaurs/1/S/w/-/-/-/microraptorgetty.jpg

The "wings" on the legs are being held in a position where they are directing, not catching, the air underneath the animal. See below diagram.

Blue represents the maximum possible spread before Microraptor breaks its hip. Red represents the position which performed best in a wind tunnel. Red good blue bad.

At speed however the legs and tail generate lift, similar traits can be seen in birds of prey today that specialize in hunting in deep forests. There are also no known gliding pterosaurs, they also flew.

large pterosaurs  would have had to glide  it would be too much of a strain on their hollow bones (which were hollow to reduce weight  a trait helpful in gliding ) the tail and legs would  generate lift ,  because if you are going to glide you need to have lift to keep your altitude

Reducing weight is helpful in literally every aspect of an animals life from mating to catching food, not just gliding. I don't think you really understand aerodynamics or what constitutes the traits required for gliding or flight. Loosing weight is, if anything, more important for flight than for gliding because flying animals need to be able to exert a lot more effort and for a lot longer than a gliding animal.

Most (if not all) theropods are closer to birds than to crocodiles, and crocodiles are a lot closer to birds than to any other extant reptiles 

i said that because evolution caused birds to branch of away from them , crocodiles while closer to birds  still share the overall body type of a lizard or reptile . this shows even though  theropods were close to birds they could have had a different build and skin covering

I've been avoiding the ultimate short answer up until now but I honestly don't know what I can say to this besides "no" short of giving you a complete crash course on evolution itself as a concept.


Now to everyone else reading here I am honestly very sorry you had to put up with my tone here and I understand completely if anyone thinks I shouldn't have continued here and should have said nothing. But I've already dug myself this deep so if I'm just feeding a troll here sobeit I felt it was appropriate to finalize my statements on this.

oh no im just not very educated on flight mechanics and feather orientation the hard tone was necessary   well i guess ill just have to read up more on raptors and birds , (also the croc thing was a joke )

[fason]

The skeleton is pretty different from a bird. That's why scientists were tricked for so long into thinking dinosaurs were reptile-like. What fossils showing the type of feathers prove is that the outside appearance of birds evolved first (around the dawn of Pennaraptorans) and the internal muscle and skeleton anatomy caught up later (around the dawn of Ornithothoraces; note that even Confuciousornis is more like Microraptor than birds in terms of its skeletal anatomy). That's why Mark Norell said if you looked at a living Velociraptor, you would think it was just a weird bird. You'd be wrong of course, it's not actually a weird bird, but it would LOOK like one which is all that matters for a toy figure. Obviously the skeleton is different. But the external appearance was that of a bird. The evidence proves it. Nothing else to say.

oh ok

[fason]

although some of my questions seem to have been mis worded at the time , by evolution i meant adaptation ,


and the compactness of the microraptor  debate i was talking about was  the skeleton  and just body  , but dino guy answered that .


i kinda fail to see how i ignored everything , i stated some points that even you looked over.

lastly the things you stated for velociraptors wouldnt  show its head feather arrangements ,

I SWEAR IM NOT A TROLL AND NOT TRYING TO BE

[btb300]

I have enrolled on the Coursera course titled Paleontology: Theropod Dinosaurs and the Origin of Birds and though I am only done with the first lesson it already gave some great insight into difference between birds' and dinosaurs' skeleton structures etc. Interestingly the large gliding birds have significantly more hollowed bones than flying birds. I wonder if it has to do with size or the fact that they are rather glding, the two are probably interrelated. Larger animals can exert less power with their muscles compared to their weight, since the first is proportional to the crossectional area of the muscles, while the latter is related to the volume of them.
Also the debate that feather on dromaeosaurs has evolved first and after that came the abilty to fly or that these animals where secondarily flightless is not yet settled, and new basal forms found can turn tables any time. I am not sure what the most recent opinion on this is, but just keep in mind that nothing is written in stones here(well, except the fossils of course).
Anyway I'm looking forward to the rest of the course, I am quite happy someone mentioned it on this forum.

[fason]

hope your course is fun and educational

[fason]

also i just realized  , this debate was not related to the topic ,and only resolved  if microraptor flew .the tone was really not necessary as you could have explained it nicely too  .  thanks for the humbling though i have got to be more meek on topics im not sure about .                                                                                                      



ps gaining weight was also helpful in doing the things you listed



EDIT : just saw a closeup of the face (yeah yeah im late) and it looks more inaccurate than i thought.still a jump in accuracy though