New Russian Pliosaur Discovered

[stargatedalek]

What shark can swim at 60 mph? That's ludicrous. Maybe something could bite/turn/lunge/etc. at that speed but no animal I know of can move that quickly using its own propulsion for an extended period of time (birds can dive faster but that's directed falling).

Marine turtles are also a lot faster than you're giving them credit for. For the record they can outswim tiger sharks in speed and stamina, the sharks have to get the jump on them to catch them.

[Neosodon]

What shark can swim at 60 mph? That's ludicrous. Maybe something could bite/turn/lunge/etc. at that speed but no animal I know of can move that quickly using its own propulsion for an extended period of time (birds can dive faster but that's directed falling).

Marine turtles are also a lot faster than you're giving them credit for. For the record they can outswim tiger sharks in speed and stamina, the sharks have to get the jump on them to catch them.

Mako sharks can go 60 mph. The bulkiest shark which is the whale shark can't go much over 3 mph. It is general knowledge that bulky animals are not as fast as streamline animals. A matinee is not going to outrun a dolphin. Pliosaurs were bulky but had powerful flippers so they would have been able to get a good burst of speed but the amount of energy it would take to maintain that speed would make a drawn out chase against a more streamline icthyosaur impractical.

About sea turtles "Sea turtles can swim at speeds of up to 15 miles per hour. However, they have been known to swim even faster in short bursts or when trying to elude a predator." https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/fast-can-sea-turtles-swim-d2d10d8ec22c1fbe

Stuff you should no about shark speeds.

http://www.sharksinfo.com/speed.html
"It has, to date, been almost impossible to gain an accurate idea of the speeds that the sharks are able to reach. This is due to several reasons

Those sharks that have swum next to boats in pursuit of bait frequently slow down eventually. However, it is not known whether this is because of fatigue, safety or if they simply lose interest. So, this does not provide an accurate reading of their abilities.

It has been established that smaller, lighter sharks are able to reach higher speeds than their larger, heavier counterparts. It is also clear that sharks are designed to swim fast only in short bursts (i.e. when chasing prey).

In a very general sense, sharks average a cruising speed of eight kilometres per hour (or five miles) and a pursuing speed of about 20 kilometres or 12 miles an hour. Sharks that are able to swim remarkably faster, such as the Shortfin Mako and the Great White, are thought to be able to do so because their blood is slightly warmer than that of other species."

[stargatedalek]

You are completely ignoring everything about Pliosaur anatomy. You can't just say "well they look fat so they must be slow" when anatomical studies done by people who've actually studied the hydrodynamics say otherwise.

Whale sharks can accelerate much faster than that. Whale sharks studied by the Georgia aquarium before building their tank were measured at accelerating "one body length per second". They normally swim slowly because they have no reason to move any faster. And whale sharks aren't even that bulky, they're large, but right whales and sperm whales are much bulkier, and they're quite fast.

The NOAA has a top speed of green sea turtles at 20 mph when sprinting, and we know larger size correlates to faster speed in marine turtles, and so accordingly leatherback are considerably faster. Their maximum cruising speed of 2.8 meters a second (sprinting speed is unknown).
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/205/23/3689

[suspsy]

What shark can swim at 60 mph? That's ludicrous. Maybe something could bite/turn/lunge/etc. at that speed but no animal I know of can move that quickly using its own propulsion for an extended period of time (birds can dive faster but that's directed falling).

Marine turtles are also a lot faster than you're giving them credit for. For the record they can outswim tiger sharks in speed and stamina, the sharks have to get the jump on them to catch them.

Mako sharks can go 60 mph. The bulkiest shark which is the whale shark can't go much over 3 mph. It is general knowledge that bulky animals are not as fast as streamline animals. A matinee is not going to outrun a dolphin. Pliosaurs were bulky but had powerful flippers so they would have been able to get a good burst of speed but the amount of energy it would take to maintain that speed would make a drawn out chase against a more streamline icthyosaur impractical.

About sea turtles "Sea turtles can swim at speeds of up to 15 miles per hour. However, they have been known to swim even faster in short bursts or when trying to elude a predator." https://www.reference.com/pets-animals/fast-can-sea-turtles-swim-d2d10d8ec22c1fbe

Stuff you should no about shark speeds.

http://www.sharksinfo.com/speed.html
"It has, to date, been almost impossible to gain an accurate idea of the speeds that the sharks are able to reach. This is due to several reasons

Those sharks that have swum next to boats in pursuit of bait frequently slow down eventually. However, it is not known whether this is because of fatigue, safety or if they simply lose interest. So, this does not provide an accurate reading of their abilities.

It has been established that smaller, lighter sharks are able to reach higher speeds than their larger, heavier counterparts. It is also clear that sharks are designed to swim fast only in short bursts (i.e. when chasing prey).

In a very general sense, sharks average a cruising speed of eight kilometres per hour (or five miles) and a pursuing speed of about 20 kilometres or 12 miles an hour. Sharks that are able to swim remarkably faster, such as the Shortfin Mako and the Great White, are thought to be able to do so because their blood is slightly warmer than that of other species."

That link that you shared does not support your claim about sharks being able to reach 60 mph, Neosodon. Not even close.

Also, do you really think that the size difference between pliosaurs and penguins was not taken into account when that flipper experiment was conducted?

[Halichoeres]

Graham et al. 1990 (J. Exp. Biol. 151: 175-192) found mako sharks to be able to sprint at 18.8 m/s, or around 40 mph. That's pretty fast, but I'm not aware of any good evidence for fishes going much faster than that. Even sailfish, widely rumored to reach 70 mph, probably don't in actual fact reach nearly that speed (http://bio.biologists.org/content/5/10/1415).

I don't know anything about pliosaur swimming, but I'll be interested to see what other people chime in with.

[Neosodon]

Suspsy, I didn't post the link for how fast a Mako shark is because all you have to do is go to google and type how fast is a Mako shark and it is literally the first thing that comes up.

And your wrong Stardekadalek, researchers have said that pliosaurs had powerful flippers that could reach a high speed. But they did not say that they would have been able to outrun sharks and icthyosaurs. Nor did the reaserchers claim pliosaurs had the stamina and aerodynamic ability to win out in a drawn out chase against either of them.

The researches used penguins to demonstrate flipper movement. But that's it, penguins are warm blooded and you can not really compare their life styles to that of a pliosaur.

Sharks will generally not waste the energy chasing down slower prey unless they have too. Even if pliosaurs were warm blooded and had super powerful muscles and stamina it would take to much energy to chase down fast prey. Pliosaurs were ambush hunters. They would most likely wait for an animal to come to the surface to breath and then make their move. The only time pliosaurs would regularly use brute speed to hunt is in chasing down weak, sick or injured animals.

Sea turtles do not outrun sharks. Their shells will protect them from most predators. They will make a run for land or they can angle their shells to protect against large sharks.
https://youtu.be/T0Ug30db6gE

[stargatedalek]

Just because your result was the first one on Google doesn't make it true. Frankly I'm tired of dealing with you these past few weeks, you've been incredibly argumentative and disruptive and so have refused to recognize any case where you were not correct even when proper sources thoroughly prove otherwise.

Every single thing you've said has been incorrect, quantifiably so, and now you're even claiming Pliosaurs were cold blooded while also claiming to be more aware of "what scientists said" than anyone else.

[suspsy]

Neosodon, I'm going to have to insist that you provide a primary source for your claim that mako sharks can reach 60 mph. You are the one making the claim, ergo the onus is on you to support it with evidence. Not me. You.

Moreover, what exactly does this even have to do with your original (and bogus) claim that pliosaurs were slow swimmers? This whole spat grew out of your incredulity over how Luskhan was able to hunt fish. Let's get to that and stick to that. Tell me: do you think that Amazon river dolphins hunt by outswimming their fish prey? Do you think that gharials do?

[Neosodon]

Just because your result was the first one on Google doesn't make it true. Frankly I'm tired of dealing with you these past few weeks, you've been incredibly argumentative and disruptive and so have refused to recognize any case where you were not correct even when proper sources thoroughly prove otherwise.

Every single thing you've said has been incorrect, quantifiably so, and now you're even claiming Pliosaurs were cold blooded while also claiming to be more aware of "what scientists said" than anyone else.

What

The dinosaur toy forum is supposed to be a friendly place were ideas regarding paleontology can be discussed in a civil manner. I apologize if I've stated my view point in an manner that has offended anyone. I only have these discussions to give people including myself included a more well rounded view.

But what you are saying is complete hypocrisy and mostly false. It takes two too have an argument. I state my theory, then you say it is completely incorrect. So then I defend my view point which makes me argumentative one? That makes no sense.

If you have a problem with me I would be happy to get it worked out on the forum etiquette thread. But lets try to stay on topic please.

On a related note are pliosaurs actually warm blooded. Since their called marine reptiles I've always assumed they were cold blooded. If there is substantial evidence of pliosaurs being warmblooded then it's about time to do some reclassification.

Neosodon, I'm going to have to insist that you provide a primary source for your claim that mako sharks can reach 60 mph. You are the one making the claim, ergo the onus is on you to support it with evidence. Not me. You.

Moreover, what exactly does this even have to do with your original (and bogus) claim that pliosaurs were slow swimmers? This whole spat grew out of your incredulity over how Luskhan was able to hunt fish. Let's get to that and stick to that. Tell me: do you think that Amazon river dolphins hunt by outswimming their fish prey? Do you think that gharials do?

http://sharkopedia.discovery.com/types-of-sharks/shortfin-mako-shark/

Since the article never talked about what it ate I was just curious what people thought. I actually do not have any good ideas on how Luskhan ate. How do river dolphins and and gharials hunt? I've already spent half my day off watching turtle and shark documentaries. So I think I'm done with research for the day.

[suspsy]

You're not serious, right? You don't really think that "Sharkopedia" is a primary source, do you?

[stargatedalek]

You didn't "state a theory", you claimed something as fact, and several people corrected you in due turn. You then tried to bring up vaguely relevant topics as evidence of your point, which were in turn refuted, and you continued to bring up more and more things until you found something you thought couldn't be refuted. This isn't personal, I would consider this a "formal" situation.

Even sea turtles are warm blooded, being warm blooded doesn't mean something isn't a reptile. Heck, some tuna are warm blooded.

[BlueKrono]

You didn't "state a theory", you claimed something as fact, and several people corrected you in due turn. You then tried to bring up vaguely relevant topics as evidence of your point, which were in turn refuted, and you continued to bring up more and more things until you found something you thought couldn't be refuted. This isn't personal, I would consider this a "formal" situation.

Even sea turtles are warm blooded, being warm blooded doesn't mean something isn't a reptile. Heck, some tuna are warm blooded.

I'm afraid there are no species of turtle that are endothermic. If you're referring to the leatherback, they are not true ectotherms. They use instead what is called gigantothermy, their large size allowing them to better keep in the heat in their bodies that can be generated through other sources like sunlight, activity or metabolism. Small leatherbacks aren't much better at keeping warm than any other turtle, and certainly can't survive in Arctic waters like the large adults can.

[stargatedalek]

I'm afraid there are no species of turtle that are endothermic. If you're referring to the leatherback, they are not true ectotherms. They use instead what is called gigantothermy, their large size allowing them to better keep in the heat in their bodies that can be generated through other sources like sunlight, activity or metabolism. Small leatherbacks aren't much better at keeping warm than any other turtle, and certainly can't survive in Arctic waters like the large adults can.

I thought "warm blooded" meant "not reliant on environmental factors to maintain body temperature" and not ectothermy per-se, though I could be wrong. They actually use countercurrent exchange to maintain heat, and some "extra" muscles that actually produce heat because of how little time they spend at rest (think giant underwater hummingbirds, always moving and eating), not gigantothermy. They also have some muscles composed of adipose tissue allowing them to function despite rapid temperature fluctuation while diving rapidly.