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avatar_Lizerd

Weights of Large Predatory Dinosaurs

Started by Lizerd, July 09, 2018, 07:19:52 PM

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KeU

#20
Quote from: Lizerd on July 09, 2018, 07:19:52 PM
So I found an article(below) that suggested that T.rex was larger in mass and weight than Giganotosaurus was and possibly Spinosaurus. I do not know how legitimate it is but it definitely is an interesting subject that brings up a fair point. What would this mean? It would likely suggest something on their lifestyles. Any information on the articles legitimacy and possibilities of what this would mean would be appreciated, enjoy the conversation!
http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/mass-estimates-north-vs-south-redux772013
the article
Ah, the analysis by Scott Hartman a few years back.
I would think this is common knowledge by now.
This article spread like wild fire, no doubt helped by the Tyrannosaurus fanboys with this 'good news'.
It is pretty much accepted that even though Giganotosaurus and Spinosaurus are longer, a quick look at the skeletons will show that Tyrannosaurus is wider and heavier.
This video by V.I (Who is also in this forum) helps bring the point across.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJDGCDGjBto
Although I think the widths might be a little exaggerated in the video. Something feels off. But I might be wrong.
Regardless, Tyrannosaurus is no doubt bulkier.
Folks might argue that Spinosaurus might still be heavier but I doubt it.
The heaviest parts of the dinosaur are their legs and tail.
And tail and legs of Tyrannosaurus are definitely more massive.
Spinosaurus is probably close in weight to Giganotosaurus (and Carcharodontosaurus), with Tyrannosaurus being heavier than all of them.

Quote from: Simon on July 11, 2018, 12:07:19 AM
Quote from: Neosodon on July 10, 2018, 08:23:37 PM
I think Spinosaurus had greater bone density. So it could be that Spinosaurus was the heaviest while T. rex had the largest volume. Now that would really heat up the debate between the Spinosaurus and T. rex fanboys.  :))
Fanboy 1: "Spinosaurus was totally the most awesome. It was the heaviest of any carnivore dinosaur ever!"
Fanboy 2: "But T. rex would totally have won in a fight. It had the larger body size!"
There's really little left to be debated regarding a head-to-head contest between these monsters.  Anatomy is instructive on the point. 
TRex had the most powerful jaws/skull that was designed to crush bone.  Neither Spinosaurid nor Allosauroid jaws/skulls could match that.  One had a thin long skull/jaws for catching fish and the other one a narrow skull/jaws designed for slicing flesh off of sauropods.
In a head-to-head "stand-off" contest between two full-grown predators, the head or neck area would be the most likely point of initial engagement.
TRex could probably survive a head bite from either of the other two critters (we know that TRexes survived bites from other TRexes based on fossil finds).  The reverse is not true. If a TRex got its jaws around the jaws/skull of a Spinosaurid or Allosauroid the result would be broken bones and the game would be over.  Advantage - TRex  ;)
I don't think it is as straight forwards as that. It is easy to say that higher bite force equals better.
I think the high bite force of Tyrannosaurus is the product of the type of prey it hunts, hunting style and shape of its teeth.
The last one being a particularly important point, it takes significantly more energy to wield a heavy claymore compared to a lighter and sharper katana.
Remember the last time you had to cut through a steak with a blunt knife, it takes much more effort and time right?
Same thing with Tyrannosaurus.
And I would argue it is a handicap as well, as the animal will need expend more time and energy developing muscle mass and to execute the bite.
Giganotosaurus and Spinosaurus will not need to match its bite strength, they will just go about the fight with how they are evolved to.
One with quick slashing bites to anywhere on the body, the other..... actually I have no idea how Spinosaurus can take down another giant Theropod.
Its giant claws perhaps, but its arms doesn't have much motion range. Probably an ambush near the water and drowning, like a crocodile.
However, I do agree with the general consensus that if Tyrannosaurus gets a bite around the head or neck, it is game over.
It can easily over power either Theropod, and slowly clamp down like a hydraulic press.
The overpowering statement leads into the 1st and 2nd points I made earlier as well.
Tyrannosaurus being heavier and bulkier is the product of its prey choices and hunting style.
Most of its prey are of similar or smaller physical size.
Where Tyrannosaurus can use its strength to overwhelm the struggling victim.
Using its wide body and strong arms to hold down the prey while maneuvering to deliver a bone crushing bite.
This technique plays nicely with its physical attributes and provides flexibility on prey items.
It doesn't matter if the prey has armour, frills, horns or bone clubs.
As long as Tyrannosaurus can wrestle the animal down and keep it somewhat immobile, its jaws can crush through anything.
The only limiting factor here is size and strength, if an animal is larger and stronger, it will not work. An Alamosaurus for example.
That's where numbers come in. Nothing a pack of Tyrannosaurus can't handle.
Conversely, Giganotosaurus would prefer to avoid extended contact when hunting.
It will have a fractured skull if it latched on to struggling prey.
Deliver as many slashing bites in as little runs as possible.
And let the prey die of shock and blood loss.
Definitely more energy efficient and safer.
But way less entertaining.




Lizerd

Excuse me sir... but did I just see a civil discussion on a T.rex battle??? Wow that's a first  :o as for mass it's interesting, a Rex skeleton may be bulky but gives you little idea of all the muscle it had.
If you wonder where I'm active now, you can find me here- http://www.lustria-online.com/members/lizerd.17772/
It's been a good run here

KeU

Quote from: Lizerd on September 03, 2018, 09:36:37 PM
Excuse me sir... but did I just see a civil discussion on a T.rex battle??? Wow that's a first  :o as for mass it's interesting, a Rex skeleton may be bulky but gives you little idea of all the muscle it had.
Hahaha, I tried.
People tend to lose any rationality when they hide behind a keyboard.
You are right on the muscle mass though, bulk of the skeletal mass is not confirmation of corresponding muscle mass.
Usually, and I am generalizing here, there is some correlation though.
Tyrannosaurus have bigger bones compared to similarly sized Theropod.
The extra bone mass usually means more muscle to support the additional weight.
And that affords the creature more power.
Same deal in the weight room, a bulky person and a lanky person of the same weight.
The bulkier person usually is able to handle more weights.
Again, this is my general observation.
For all we know, it cannot apply to these giant Theropods or the numerous variations we see across specimens.

Syndicate Bias

The Giganotosaurus was still the tallest and largest and biggest just so you know. It's bite force was equal to that of 5 rexes  ;)


KeU

Quote from: Syndicate Bias on September 04, 2018, 05:19:37 PM
https://youtu.be/E9I-X_5JtiY
Oh man, I love that game.
Used to replay it endlessly when I was young.
Anti Tank Rifle and Solid Cannon!

Syndicate Bias

I still play it to this day. Have three copies of Dino Crisis 2 just because it was my childhood aside from Crash and Spyro and Halo.

Best game of all time imo it's what got me into Giganotosaurus even though he was oversized in this game  :))

Lizerd

Now before we get completely sidetracked , I had an idea on more t.rex bulk. Ever notice how a croc has two bulges on its neck? Those are the jaw muscles, and what if T. Rex had something similar?
If you wonder where I'm active now, you can find me here- http://www.lustria-online.com/members/lizerd.17772/
It's been a good run here

KeU

Quote from: Lizerd on September 04, 2018, 09:56:17 PM
Now before we get completely sidetracked , I had an idea on more t.rex bulk. Ever notice how a croc has two bulges on its neck? Those are the jaw muscles, and what if T. Rex had something similar?
I am not too sure. Need someone who knows more.
I would think we already have a pretty good idea how the jaw, cranial and neck muscles attach on a Tyrannosaurus.

Quote from: Syndicate Bias on September 04, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
I still play it to this day. Have three copies of Dino Crisis 2 just because it was my childhood aside from Crash and Spyro and Halo.
Best game of all time imo it's what got me into Giganotosaurus even though he was oversized in this game  :))
That's what got me interested as well.
Although I first read about Giganotosaurus in a National Geographic article in the 90s.
Along with the Dinotopia: World Beneath book by James Gurney.

Brocc21

This makes a lot of sense actually. Considering that Hell creek had a very deserving name if you know what I mean. The herbivores there were armed to the teeth and eyelids...huh. So rexes being a lot bulkier makes a ton of sense. Triceratops, eotriceratops, and torosaurus had some pretty obvious defense and intimidation methods. Even if they weren't stabbing with those horns you wouldn't want to get close to it's head. Dakota raptor was one of the largest dromeasaurs along with utahraptor and austroraptor. Ankylosaurus and denversaurus were tanks. Anky being an inpenatrible shell with a clubbed tail and den being a spiked little turd. Struthi,ornithimimus, and pachys were probably to small and and fast for a grown rex to hunt. And edmontosaurus and especially alomosaurus were pretty big. So tyrannosaurus being heavy would be very helpful. A giga was bigger but I think their teeth say a lot. Their teeth were like knives for slicing flesh. Kind of like how the mapusaurus hunt in planet dinosaur. Ripping flesh off of a larger target (Im going to to right a post about this in a bit I think you guys might like it). And spinosaurus was mostly eating fish. Very large fish some with impressive defense and offense. He also had sarcosuchus and possibly a very cocksure kaprosuchus along maybe an occasional charchar he never less ate fish.
"Boy do I hate being right all the time."