cool Nyctosaurus

[brontosauruschuck]

Forgetting all science for a moment, and just going off personal aesthetics, which do you feel is more cool looking: Nyctosaurus with a sail or with no sail?

[Shonisaurus]

The nyctosaurus without a candle on the crest gives it a weirder and more exotic look.

[ITdactyl]

I've been wondering if anyone has done a study on the aerodynamic properties of a "sail" - and how it would affect flight.

To answer the question though, a plain antlered male still looks awesome, and I prefer the conservative antler shape over a full sail.

[stargatedalek]

I've been wondering if anyone has done a study on the aerodynamic properties of a "sail" - and how it would affect flight.

To answer the question though, a plain antlered male still looks awesome, and I prefer the conservative antler shape over a full sail.

A study isn't even needed. Imagine a full sized moose antler attached to a gull. There is simply no way that thing wouldn't get dragged away by the wind aerodynamics be damned.

[Libraraptor]

Sail.  As improbable as it is.  But it looks better.  Just received the PNSO Nyctosaurus with a sail and it looks great.

[stargatedalek]

Sail.  As improbable as it is.  But it looks better.  Just received the PNSO Nyctosaurus with a sail and it looks great.

To be fair, I like to imagine the sails are something the animal could grow and loose during mating seasons. With the vibrant partner becoming functionally flightless for a brief period, perhaps gathering on sand bars to display in relative safety.

[Dinoguy2]

I've been wondering if anyone has done a study on the aerodynamic properties of a "sail" - and how it would affect flight.

To answer the question though, a plain antlered male still looks awesome, and I prefer the conservative antler shape over a full sail.

A study isn't even needed. Imagine a full sized moose antler attached to a gull. There is simply no way that thing wouldn't get dragged away by the wind aerodynamics be damned.

Aerodynamic studies have indeed been done. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229502318_Aerodynamic_Characteristics_of_the_Crest_with_Membrane_Attachment_on_Cretaceous_Pterodactyloid_Nyctosaurus

They found that a sail would add aerodynamic function and help provide thrust. A crest with no sail would be neutral. It would have no added aerodynamic benefits but also would not hinder flight.

It "seems" obvious that a huge antler would be detrimental to flight but the actual test shows that is wrong. Which is why we need science. Our gut instincts are worthless.

[stargatedalek]

That's definitely interesting that it offers aerodynamic advantage though I doubt that would fully counteract the risk of being simply dragged away by strong winds, let alone things like their necks getting snapped. Especially given the risks are still present when on the ground.

I wasn't going to pretend it was possible to predict aerodynamics by looks alone, but flight is not the only concern a flying animal faces especially when it's relatively small.

[Dinoguy2]

That's definitely interesting that it offers aerodynamic advantage though I doubt that would fully counteract the risk of being simply dragged away by strong winds, let alone things like their necks getting snapped. Especially given the risks are still present when on the ground.

I wasn't going to pretend it was possible to predict aerodynamics by looks alone, but flight is not the only concern a flying animal faces especially when it's relatively small.

I imagine it would be kind of like windsurfing, which if done right offers little risk of being carried away by wind or having the mast snap. Similarly, sailboats with the sails down don't suffer much negative effects.

In the case of too extreme wind shear, I imagine the animal would just stay grounded until the weather became favorable, and probably stuck to areas that had more favorable winds on average.

[stargatedalek]

That's definitely interesting that it offers aerodynamic advantage though I doubt that would fully counteract the risk of being simply dragged away by strong winds, let alone things like their necks getting snapped. Especially given the risks are still present when on the ground.

I wasn't going to pretend it was possible to predict aerodynamics by looks alone, but flight is not the only concern a flying animal faces especially when it's relatively small.

I imagine it would be kind of like windsurfing, which if done right offers little risk of being carried away by wind or having the mast snap. Similarly, sailboats with the sails down don't suffer much negative effects.

In the case of too extreme wind shear, I imagine the animal would just stay grounded until the weather became favorable, and probably stuck to areas that had more favorable winds on average.

Sail boats do in fact get their masts broken in strong winds, and they are many times both the girth and strength of Nyctosaurus' neck. Nyctosaurus is also a pelagic animal, it was dealing with very high winds regularly and wouldn't have been able to reach land on short notice in bad weather. It seems unlikely it would have taken such an unnecessary risk of having such a structure when the benefit is so small.

Assuming they aren't separate species the specimens attributed to females don't even have the "branches", which would indicate these were display structures and any mobility advantages they would offer would have appeared coincidentally making the neutral aerodynamic option equally likely even before taking into account potential other negatives of having a giant sail.

[Vidusaurus]

While the "sail" on its own would have a positive effect on the aerodynamics of the animal, it simply didn't have the bone strength to support such a structure, especially given that it likely lived in environments with near-constant strong winds. The bone of the crest itself also doesn't have any osteological correlates suggesting it supported a flap of skin, given that it was almost completely round.

In the case of too extreme wind shear, I imagine the animal would just stay grounded until the weather became favorable, and probably stuck to areas that had more favorable winds on average.

Given that Nyctosaurus likely didn't have any fingers except for the one supporting its wing membrane, it seems almost certain that it spent almost all its life in flight, landing only to breed and rear its young or in extreme circumstances.

[Dinoguy2]

While the "sail" on its own would have a positive effect on the aerodynamics of the animal, it simply didn't have the bone strength to support such a structure, especially given that it likely lived in environments with near-constant strong winds. The bone of the crest itself also doesn't have any osteological correlates suggesting it supported a flap of skin, given that it was almost completely round.

In the case of too extreme wind shear, I imagine the animal would just stay grounded until the weather became favorable, and probably stuck to areas that had more favorable winds on average.

Given that Nyctosaurus likely didn't have any fingers except for the one supporting its wing membrane, it seems almost certain that it spent almost all its life in flight, landing only to breed and rear its young or in extreme circumstances.

Yes, and looking back I thought stargatedalek was saying string winds would snap just an antler, but now I realize that by "moose antler" they meant sail shape rather than the sail free crest.

[stargatedalek]

If it was in any way used to improve flight proficiency it would not have been a gender dimorphic feature. That alone completely invalidates any claim that the odds are in favor of a sail and makes the "branched" neutral structure equally likely already.

This was a very small pterosaur, though its wings were larger proportionally it had similar weight and bulk to a large gull. It didn't have the strength to effectively resist the inevitable wind pull on a sail and being a pelagic animal only means it had that much less control over the conditions it flew in.

*edit* Aah whoops. Yes I meant the sail, the branched shape is preserved bone so I haven't even heard anyone argue it wasn't 100% confirmed before.

[Dinoguy2]

If it was in any way used to improve flight proficiency it would not have been a gender dimorphic feature. That alone completely invalidates any claim that the odds are in favor of a sail and makes the "branched" neutral structure equally likely already.

This was a very small pterosaur, though its wings were larger proportionally it had similar weight and bulk to a large gull. It didn't have the strength to effectively resist the inevitable wind pull on a sail and being a pelagic animal only means it had that much less control over the conditions it flew in.

*edit* Aah whoops. Yes I meant the sail, the branched shape is preserved bone so I haven't even heard anyone argue it wasn't 100% confirmed before.

Yeah, it's definitely hard to argue that the antler existed, but I have read skepticism that adults with it would not be able to fly and would either shed it after breeding season or just die. I thought for a minute you were arguing along those lines.

[tanystropheus]

Are Nyctosaurus even airborne reptiles? What if they scale rocky terrain, crawl about or hang out like penguins...?

[Halichoeres]

Are Nyctosaurus even airborne reptiles? What if they scale rocky terrain, crawl about or hang out like penguins...?

They seem to have lost all the fingers of their hand except for the one that supports the wing membrane, so that would be a tough trick.

[Neosodon]

"Forgetting all science for a moment".......That was never going to happen.

But I do think it looks better without the sail. Looks more sharp and sleek. A little more unique. But with with the sail it looks an imperial shuttle.

[tanystropheus]

Are Nyctosaurus even airborne reptiles? What if they scale rocky terrain, crawl about or hang out like penguins...?

They seem to have lost all the fingers of their hand except for the one that supports the wing membrane, so that would be a tough trick.

Oh wow, this Nyctosaurus is causing all sorts of dilemmas with respect to physics and physiology!

Perhaps, it's time to consult David Peters 

[brontosauruschuck]

"Forgetting all science for a moment".......That was never going to happen.

But I do think it looks better without the sail. Looks more sharp and sleek. A little more unique. But with with the sail it looks an imperial shuttle.

I will never be able to see them as not imperial shuttles again.