Knock-off figures - general discussion

[docronnie]

I think I have a few vintage knock offs in my collection. But I stopped picking them up lately.

[Hynerpeton]

Nuff said

I like this!

Is it wrong to buy fakes? No not to me. Yes I won't buy all fakes don't worry.

[ITdactyl]

to chime in on the subject..

... In one of the biggest toy chains in my area, the small Schleichs are sold for almost $9 ($8.91).  The blown up copies are sold a few feet away and usually costs a little over $2 (and I'm not even implying that their choice of shelf arrangement was premeditated). 

Prior to the late 2000s, most of the dinosaur toys on the shelves are unbranded chinasaurs - and we weren't even aware that some of these are copies of "known" western brands.

The top stores have since tried to introduce Mojo Fun and Schleich.  I mailed them and asked if they will be bringing in more brands like CollectA etc.  The answer I got is very realistic (albeit sad).  Their decision will actually depend on the success of Schleich and Mojo Fun (which aren't exactly flying off the shelves).

..so that's how things are in my "area".  A budding collector will almost always start off with knock-offs.  Some will be lucky enough to have relatives or hobbyist friends who're willing to import for them, until they can import "originals" themselves.

Although 98% of my collection's all original, I can't and won't judge those who do buy KOs - if only for the reason originals are hard to come by.  And I also know some people who like to collect KOs (like what was mentioned a few posts back), for their own purposes.

[tyrantqueen]

I live in the UK, and in the sticks (the Cotswolds) to boot. So, there are no dinosaur toys for sale where I live. At all. Maybe some vintage JP toys in charity shops or jumble sales, and chinasaurs here and there, but I cannot get brand new releases like CollectAs or Safaris locally. I'm also disabled so travelling to big towns is a no. I don't buy toy figures as much as I did when I first started out, but any of my shopping is done one hundred percent online. If I saw knockoffs for sale in my town (fat chance, but hypothetically speaking), I would not buy them.

[Crackington]

Knowingly buying knock-off dino models is the equivalent of buying knock-off clothing, electrical or other gear from  a dodgy character in the pub! You don't know what you're encouraging, but you can bet that its nothing good.

It's ultimately damaging the hobby and peoples livings, like Doug Watson and the other sculptors.

[stargatedalek]

I think theres a huge difference between a premeditated purchase of a KO, and a spontaneous one
especially with online purchases where its easy to get the real deal, and yet some people still go for the bootlegs

[DinoToyForum]

This is a really interesting topic. Knocking off figures is illegal and obviously wrong - it is a real issue and has to stop.

Personally, I'd never buy a knock-off as a replacement/alternative for an original.

However, as dinosaur toy collectors, the issue of owning/collecting knock-offs (once they do exist), isn't quite that simple. For example, I own some knock-offs: Salvats and Laramies. See side by side comparisons below. I'm a prehistoric marine reptile figure completist. I treasure them as curiosities in their own right, and because they are different enough from the originals to warrant inclusion in this particular completist's collection. I'd like to think that, if this makes me part of the problem (I have to concede that it does, even if only a tiny amount), that my other contributions to genuine dinosaur toy companies (through purchases, blog reviews, offering my service as a consultant for free, running this forum), compensates for any wrongdoing I may have done. My point is, I think, that we have to be careful about pointing fingers here. I think it is a mistake to equate all owners of knock-offs as accomplices to a crime, or to call into question their integrity.

[amanda]

Ok. The Brachiosaurus rip off up there has kept my head swirling all night, and since I am being kept awake by my thoughts, I will jot them down here to inflict my insanity onto you.

I will say my collection is very small. I have not bootleg/unofficial/"inspired" pieces. Only originals. And, this is a difficult goal. I have no access to most toys in store and must order on-line, and I hate doing that. I prefer seeing the actual product in my hand before deciding. There is only one place in the city selling dinosaur toys of note (aside from the Shleich pieces), and they only sell the Carnegie/Wild Safari stuff. But, getting any of the newer pieces is a toss-up. Atm, the newest they have is Carnegie's Ankylosaurus. I never see the knockoffs, since I never look anywhere for them. I have difficulties with being out of my apartment. I get moderate to severe panic attacks just getting groceries, so popping in and out of Target for the new Battats was a supreme effort. So that said, it is tremendously rewarding.

Here's the thing. The hobby shop had a Carnegie Brachiosaur up until this past may. Ms. Roger's sculpt is beyond wondrous. I would hold it in my hands and carry it around the store muttering. I wanted it badly, but I have so many "brachiosaur" figures, it was hard to justify the price. But it kept calling to me. Now, the above ...ermmm... tribute figure may look pretty close. The body may look pretty much identical. But it is not. You could buy it and say to yourself it looks just like the official item and you saved 20 dollars. As SBell and others point out, you didn't. You got a lesser piece at a lower price. The real deal's sculpt is infinitely elegant. Every fold and wrinkle, the crisp fine detail, the exact curve of the neck - all are calculated and designed for a maximum feel of elegance. Of a large and bulky animal that is still somehow slender and gracefull. You have to hold the real thing to get that. That piece up there? Just looking at it I can tell you it has completely missed all of that somehow. I do not know how to explain it. Almost all proportions and details are the same, and yet visually it does not begin to compare to the real one.

Here is a hypothetical one for you, and maybe even a relevant one. The new Battat figures are at Target for 8 dollars each. For U.S. folks only. Now, our non U.S. members have a choice. Buy them from an on-line retailer or E-Bay, and pay more for them, and for shipping, hope a friend sends them for the same price (a gift), or don't get them. Now suppose rip off figures started appearing overseas. Suppose they are as exacting as that rip off brachio. In essence, almost exactly the same as the real Battat figures. Do you buy them? If they were 5 to 8 dollars, does buying them save you money? No. Because no matter what else they are not Dan's work, not Battat. The real ones have that sense of beauty in them. Grace, movement, life even. When you pick up the pachyrhino, it has heft to it. It feels like quite the hunk of plastic. Every angle rewards you with an explosion of beauty, that somehow goes beyond mere detail. You can copy the detail, but never that inner life. Then if you hold the Cryo, you get the same feeling. You'd think that being half the size it would be less refined, and feel less hefty. But not so. It is just as detailed, and just as..THERE as the Pachy. Buying the knock off would never save money. It is tossing it away on what is essentially a "chinasaur" with none of the artists personality in it at all. And you would be depriving yourself of the beauty of a real Battat piece.

Now, personal info spoiler. I deal with paranoid schizophrenia. Getting out of the house and into public stores is dicey on my very best days. Typically I only go for groceries or meds. I never shop stores like Target. Going into a Target is like jumping into a pool of acid for me, maybe more painful. But, thanks to this forum, the members here informing of the new Battats, I did just that. Repeated weekly visits for over a month to find and get the first four. In a sense, I payed far, far more than the 8 dollars for them. Were they worth it? Every dang second, and I will continue to get the rest. I cannot stress enough how worth it they are. Would an exact copy be....not likely. You collect what you collect, I do not judge and well understand budget concerns, but buying the knock offs saves you nothing at all.

Oh, and that one lone Carnegie Brachio is no longer in the hobby store. It is sitting proudly on my desk as I type.

**swishes back into the corner to lurk**

EDIT: Dinotoyforum posted before I finished my rant. Now he is correct in that picking up the copies to complete a collection is interesting. I am not sayinf it isn't. But, he is not getting the copies in lieu of the originals, but rather as companion pieces. Not as a cheaper replacement. (again, not meaning judgement)

[Blackdanter]

Well, I collect knock off's to a degree. To me, they are an interesting addition to my collecting and they appeal to the latent anarchist in me which probably stems from my punk rock teens.

I'm probably going to upset a few folks here but I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the companies or artists whose work is reproduced, imitated or homaged (in some cases). That may sound harsh but I'll explain it in terms of my punk rock ethic and from the position of being a professional artist off an on for 30 odd years.

In terms of the artist, I've been involved in this area for a long time and know plenty of artists working in various realms ranging from the graphic arts, model making for film and TV and through music and into the fine arts field. My own experience is in fine art, graphics, the music business and professional model making. In commercial terms it works like this for artists who are employed to create something for an employer. Either you are commissioned and receive a one off payment once the thing is accepted or you're employed on a salary to create whatever the employer requires. Either way you're paid, job done. What you've created is then owned by whatever entity commissioned it. So exactly what have you lost if that item then becomes boot legged? If anything, you may gain additional exposure and potentially, new buyers, commissions or markets. I've seen that happen with some of my contemporaries and I'm pretty sure they were happy that a bit of pirating (that cost them nothing) put more work their way (it's certainly happened to me with t-shirt art for bands in the past). Very few artists are lucky enough to have future income from a product that has continued sales. The only artists I know who have this are in the music industry or film arena, I doubt that it applies to artists producing sculpts for toys, if ever at all.

Obviously, this is a different kettle of fish for the self employed struggling artist but we're talking about the toy industry here (or at least I am). There aren't that many artists producing dinosaur toys in their garage that I can think of and I can't think of any who've been bootlegged. I know there's been discussion around resin kits being recast. I really can't get to grips with the artists griping about that one either. It's supply and demand. Where the demand is there but no supply (the kit is discontinued or the artist has moved onto other things) someone, somewhere will step up to the demand. As far as I can see the artist is cutting off their nose to spite their face by not making the kit available again, effectively depriving themselves of potential income. At the very least bad business practice and at best rather laughable to complain about when someone else spots the income potential.

In terms of the companies then (and their thinly veiled moral ethics). Nearly all toy manufacturers I can think of (in terms of dinosaur toys that is) have their product produced in Asia (mainly China). The reason for that is that there is a vast workforce available and willing to work for next to nothing (by our standards) and I do mean the kind of pay that you wouldn't bother waking up for let alone getting out of bed in the morning for. There is no welfare state in play so you either work or starve (or worse). That production source means high volume cheaply produced product for the company with decent profit margins and an end product that is affordable to you (the Western buyer). Now, imagine that you are one of those workers and you're making all of this stuff for the Western market you'd probably like to own some of it yourself wouldn't you? Guess what? You can't afford to buy the stuff you work all day to make! In a nutshell, there's the actual origin of most bootleg material in China at least. Most of it is a cheaper affordable alternative for the internal market. We only see a fraction of it although, more seems to be bleeding out in recent years. In addition to that, the quality of this 'bootleg' stuff has been getting better and better in recent years and I don't think it will be long before someone in China steps up to the mark and creates a unique dinosaur toy product that challenges the big Western companies in terms of quality and certainly cost. Good luck to them I say. Give the greedy corporate sods a beating.

So, no sympathy for the big companies. Grow some morals and maybe, just maybe I'll find some.

The other thing is, don't you find it kinda odd that there is suddenly a rash of bootlegged Schleich, Safari, Collecta (although that issue is somewhat complicated) and Geoworld in the West at the moment? There is law in play in most of the Western world that can easily combat this but none of these companies seem to be exercising this. Again, more fool them. If you don't want your goods copied in Asia don't have them produced in Asia. Support your homeland economy and produce your goods on home ground. Cut out the greedy shareholders and surprise, your product will still be competitive and affordable.

I'm still chuckling at Battat staggering out into this commercial shark pool as though they've somehow been lost in the woods for twenty years. I do wish them every success but I really can't see their game plan or exactly where they expect their market to be once the nostalgia sales are done. Again, where's their product made I wonder?

So, there's no point in trying to adopt some moral high ground argument where I'm concerned on this because to me it's a nonsense. Yes, certain pirated goods where big money is made feed finances into crime, organised crime and perhaps terrorism (if you believe your governments). But toys? Dinosaur toys? Rubbish, total flannel. The money goes back to Western toy distributors and into China (or elsewhere in Asia) where I think they probably work quite hard to earn it.

       

[stargatedalek]

IIRC Safari and CollectA have been rather active in trying to fight the bootlegging, don't quote me on this though
from a completionist perspective I guess its perfectly fine and to be honest pretty novel, I have a problem with it only if its done to replace the figure entirely

[Simon]

Blackdanter - I can tell you from first hand experience that works made by "garage kit makers" like Shane Foulkes, Galileo Hernandez Nunez,and others has consistently been pirated by recasters in the Orient while those pieces have been - and are - very much still in production by the original artists.

I have called their attention to many such instances on ebay over the years, so that they could get the fraudulent auctions pulled by ebay.

I understand that you may not have much love for toy companies, but the recast theft hurts a lot of people who are just trying to make a living, and by doing so discouraging them - and new artists - from staying in the business.

So I must respectfully disagree with what I would term your somewhat jaded and cynical view of the matter.

[Hynerpeton]

to chime in on the subject..

... In one of the biggest toy chains in my area, the small Schleichs are sold for almost $9 ($8.91).  The blown up copies are sold a few feet away and usually costs a little over $2 (and I'm not even implying that their choice of shelf arrangement was premeditated). 

Prior to the late 2000s, most of the dinosaur toys on the shelves are unbranded chinasaurs - and we weren't even aware that some of these are copies of "known" western brands.

The top stores have since tried to introduce Mojo Fun and Schleich.  I mailed them and asked if they will be bringing in more brands like CollectA etc.  The answer I got is very realistic (albeit sad).  Their decision will actually depend on the success of Schleich and Mojo Fun (which aren't exactly flying off the shelves).

..so that's how things are in my "area".  A budding collector will almost always start off with knock-offs.  Some will be lucky enough to have relatives or hobbyist friends who're willing to import for them, until they can import "originals" themselves.

Although 98% of my collection's all original, I can't and won't judge those who do buy KOs - if only for the reason originals are hard to come by.  And I also know some people who like to collect KOs (like what was mentioned a few posts back), for their own purposes.

[Doug Watson]

Okay, after I read a few of the first posts that went up after my first post I was all set to respond in a ban evoking diatribe, then I read Dr Admin's note and I decided to bite my lip and wait a bit. I went away for a day of kayaking and came back to read the (self censored) post from Blackdanter.
It seems some think my points were self serving, well for the record only two of my pieces have been copied and I was outraged long before I found out about them. The model kit companies that I was talking about that were killed off by recasting were not single artists working in their garage they were companies that not only employed american artists they also employed mould makers, graphic artists, production workers, marketing people, packers and shippers, etc etc. All trying to make a living to feed their families. I guess some people don't give a crap about them. Recasting also drove under some individual artists who were trying to make a living creating garage kits as well but who cares about them, either. Blackdanter brings up supply and demand well he obviously doesn't understand business because in a small specialized market as long as there are people willing to buy rip offs at half the price it doesn't matter how many originals you put out if there aren't enough people to buy at full price to justify the investment.
When I first found out here about the recasting going on in the dino toy industry none of the pieces were sculpted by me but I let my company know because I care about their well being. I have worked for various employers for over 30 years now, museums, giftware companies and I have never been treated as well as I have by Safari Ltd. Some of the recasts I saw were of Papo pieces and I even contacted Papo to let them know about it so this is not all about me.

I have a dinosaur toy collection that spans the 1940s through to today and I will never knowingly own a knock off of anyones work.
So you have a choice and in truth it does come down to morals since with all stolen product whether it be, dinosaur toys, stolen auto parts, illegal animal parts, contraband cigarettes etc if their is no demand there will be no supply. Obviously the Grandma that buys a knock off for her grandson at a dollar store can't be blamed since she doesn't know its stolen but a knowledgable dinosaur toy collector is making a conscious choice.

Let's compare two companies call them A & B

Company A is the company I work for, they are family owned, employ a large number of American citizens, produce new dinosaurs paying for up to date representations, actively communicate with their fans eliciting their requests and sometimes putting those requests into production. They donate toys and money from their profits to educational organizations and groups that help underprivileged children, they also donate toys and money to conservation groups like a group dedicated to saving asiatic elephants. They offer up free toys to groups like the DinoToyBlog to help out with contests.

Now take company B they steal company A's product, don't create anything new, can't really communicate with consumers because they are trying not to get caught, wouldn't care to anyway. Since they are probably linked to organized crime you can imagine where the profits go. They may be involved with the illegal animal parts trade as well who knows.

So which company would you support? I would chose company A but that was the way I was raised, to this day I have never stolen anything not even a piece of candy and plan to go to my grave with that record intact.

I am starting to wonder if I am in the right place on this forum.

[DinoLord]

Doug I agree with you completely. In this hobby, like any other, voting with our wallets is the most powerful things we collectors can do to make things right. Personally, the collector in me cannot stand knockoffs - if I ever got any I would still feel uneasy about not having the real thing, even if the original piece was retired.

[tyrantqueen]

Doug Watson, your sculptures might not be my cup of tea, but I agree with what you're saying. No artist deserves to have their art stolen, regardless of whether they're being commissioned by a big conglomerate, or not. I have bought bootlegs in the past, because I was not well informed about the issue, but I will no longer buy them these days, as a matter of personal integrity.

[SBell]

Doug, I don't think anyone should leave the forum because because they don't agree with some of the mindsets of others--that is how we can create these dialogues.

But we don't have to be supportive of things that we don't like. So in actual fact it is important to stick around, to act as a reminder of what should be okay.

[Doug Watson]

Doug, I don't think anyone should leave the forum because because they don't agree with some of the mindsets of others--that is how we can create these dialogues.

But we don't have to be supportive of things that we don't like. So in actual fact it is important to stick around, to act as a reminder of what should be okay.

Oh, I'll probably stick around I am just a little hot under the collar right now. Most members seem to be against the knock offs so that gives me hope. I am still interested in the feedback of forum members on my pieces and like to hear their suggestions for new pieces I will just be making a mental note now on who is making the suggestion. 

[DinoToyForum]

I removed the comments about 'forum war' and banned Utlimatedinoking for goading. This is an interesting debate with people coming from a variety of perspectives and discussing it in a civilised manner. It's what the forum is for.

Edit- I had banned Ultimatedinoking for 30 days, but I've changed this to a permanent ban because the member created a duplicate account.

[Hynerpeton]

I removed the comments about 'forum war' and banned Utlimatedinoking for goading. This is an interesting debate with people coming from a variety of perspectives and discussing it in a civilised manner. It's what the forum is for.

Thank you.

[Patrx]

Thanks for participating in this discussion, Doug. I think it's good to hear about this issue from the perspective of someone with direct experience and a personal stake in the matter. After all, there are real people involved here, not just faceless companies. I do think most of us here agree with you, myself included.