Knock-off figures - general discussion

[Ikessauro]

After a long read I decided I should at least leave my opinion here.

I agree with most of you, we should not support knock-offs, specially the ones clearly sold to "steal" sales of the originals. If you know they are fakes, please, don't buy, or you are supporting them. You know they are rip-offs, why support them. I only understand this if comes from a small child with little cash to spend on toys. If you are an adult and knows of the illegality of a knock-off toy/model, you obviously don't care for other peoples work.

But there's more to be said on behalf of the ones who end up getting the fake toys.

I myself have a lot of cheap chinasaurs in my collection and even Jurassic Park knock-offs. I own a complete set of Salvat figures. And why is that? Let me tell you, we don't get name brand dinos in Brazil. Never! At least we didn't until a few years back.

You could walk around and enter every toy store you can find, you hardly find good dinosaur toys, let alone Safari, Papo, Collecta and so on.
Up to 2008 there were really no name brands for sale in Brazil, not even online. After I discovered about the name brand models via internet and acquired a credit card, I could import dinosaurs myself. I feel responsible for popularizing these companies here. So that's what I did. All my chinasaurs, fakes or knock-offs, whatever you wanna call them, were bought before that.
The Salvat toys were the best dino figures sold in Brazil. But they were not normal toys, they were giveaways, prizes that came with a magazine collection, sold only for a couple of years, 2000-2001. A very limited distribution in a market where no one knew of Battat, Safari etc. Not that this makes right the fact they copied other toys. But we down here enjoyed getting them!

Kids and collectors buy what they have around them and believe it or not, most of the world is not aware of Safari, Collecta, Papo, Schleich or Bullyland. People go into stores and buy whatever feels nicer to look at for the smallest price. Safari may be well known in the US and Canada, in some parts of Europe. But we down here in Southern hemisphere usually don't get to know these companies. You have to really be a hardcore collector to find out they even exist. There's no big companies here importing these toys.
That's why there will always be a market for knock-offs. People at places where name brands don't reach will be glad they have a cool toy, not aware of their real story. I bought most of mine because I didn't even know they were fakes or because I couldn't afford the name brands.
I myself have been trying to show these brands to collectors in Brazil through my blog and Youtube channel and slowly people get to know the good stuff.

Another problem with this is the costs. I have a job and earn my money, but I am not rich. So you can imagine how expensive dinosaur toys are to me. Specially when a dollar is worth two to three times more than my currency. My country's import taxes are absurd, I have to pay 60% of the total amount of any purchase, shipping included. I could get a Safari toy for about 10 dollars, but when I get it, I end up paying 3 - 4 times the original price.

I myself buy only originals nowadays, because I am obsessed with dinosaur collecting and having original models. Also, I don't have a family to support, I am single and don't have kids, not even a dog. All my salary can be spent in whatever I want. I can buy a 20 dollar Papo T.rex or a 200 hundred dollars Battat Diplodocus, not a problem.
Now imagine a child or even a adult person who's got like 20 reais (about 8 dollars) to spend, trying to get a dinosaur toy in Brazil. Name brands? Impossible. Even if they find one, it'll be very expensive. But they can easily find a chinasaur or knock-off for way less than that.

This is just my two cents.

[docronnie]

I can relate very well with your situation, Ikessauro.  A dollar now here in the Philippines is close to 46 times our currency.  I also have a family to support and most of the things you've mentioned are pretty much the same.

Except, we have thrift stores here importing second hand items from US, Japan, Australia and maybe other countries.  So, I guess, we're still lucky to get branded figures and enjoy the hobby to the fullest.

[Doug Watson]

Ikessauro I would compare your situation growing up to the example I gave of the Grandma buying a toy in the dollar store if you are unaware that these are knock offs you can hardly be blamed for buying them. However now in the age of the internet I believe that type of isolation for the enthusiast at least will become less and less  common.

I should also point out something here that I should have said on the outset. The opinions I have stated here are my own I am not a spokesperson for Safari Ltd and I do not speak for them, I am neither an employee or a representative. I am just a concerned artist and dinosaur toy collector who happens to do contract work for them.

I would still be ticked off about these knock offs if I didn't work for them. I found out about the demise of companies like Horizon long before I started doing these toys. I had found out about the Horizon JP models when I discovered Modeler's Resource and Amazing Figure Magazine and was considering doing some garage kits myself. I had actually started offering some resin dinosaurs on my website and was researching the business through those magazines. There were articles detailing the damage recasting had done to that hobby and warning artists to protect their work. Shortly after putting my resins on my site I started getting sales inquiries from Shanghai and Thailand, locations known to harbour crooked eBay sellers offering Horizon recasts for sale. Needless to say I ignored their requests and so far no one has recast my resins to my knowledge.

[docronnie]

I know all of you are aware of 3D Printing.  A demo was done last Toycon and the possibilities of making knock offs from this technology is feasible in the future.  At the moment, the service is expensive, but it will eventually come cheap in the future.

[SBell]

I know all of you are aware of 3D Printing.  A demo was done last Toycon and the possibilities of making knock offs from this technology is feasible in the future.  At the moment, the service is expensive, but it will eventually come cheap in the future.

Not just 3D printing--scanning technology is what will truly make this very possible, and that tech is also becoming less expensive, and higher resolution.

[docronnie]

I know all of you are aware of 3D Printing.  A demo was done last Toycon and the possibilities of making knock offs from this technology is feasible in the future.  At the moment, the service is expensive, but it will eventually come cheap in the future.

Not just 3D printing--scanning technology is what will truly make this very possible, and that tech is also becoming less expensive, and higher resolution.

The demo involved scanning an Optimus Prime Toy, part by part, then printing and assembling the whole toy. 

[tyrantqueen]

I know all of you are aware of 3D Printing.  A demo was done last Toycon and the possibilities of making knock offs from this technology is feasible in the future.  At the moment, the service is expensive, but it will eventually come cheap in the future.

Not just 3D printing--scanning technology is what will truly make this very possible, and that tech is also becoming less expensive, and higher resolution.

The demo involved scanning an Optimus Prime Toy, part by part, then printing and assembling the whole toy. 

It's already happened.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:250645

I guess the site owners don't know that it's based on a copyrighted design. I've also seen the Papo Tyrannosaurus being used as well.

[docronnie]

Now all it needs is a great paint job. 😊

[Blackdanter]

In terms of recasts of resin kits, It's not something that I would get involved in as a buyer as I have no interest in resin kits and wouldn't buy one anyway, let alone a recast. I agree with Simon, it stinks when the original item is still in production.

That said I have to wonder sometimes exactly what the artists are aiming for when they start such a business. I have numerous friends who are self employed or employed in the arts. Some successful some less so, they have all had to face the realities of trying to make a living from their creativity. They're tough realities that they've had to get to grips with in order to make a living. The bottom line, the reality of the situation, is that if you can't deal with those you are in the wrong business. Sadly, talent alone is not enough unless you are in perfectly the right place at the right time.

We have something rather misleadingly labelled as the free market in the West. The reality is that it's subject to all sorts of corporate protectionism and bullying (you've only got to look at the corporate protection racket labelled as a trade agreement that the US is trying to sell to Europe to see that) but the market is what it is and to survive in business you have to adapt to it and work within it. Piracy is part of that market as much as any other factor and, as someone else said, there are ways of combating that. Or at least, of minimising the impact to what you do. Sometimes, you can turn that element around and have it benefit you as I pointed out previously. The market is a shark pool, if you're not prepared to fight them off, you're in the wrong business.

So, marketing your talent in the form of palaeo sculpture resin kits. I'd say that was a pretty rarefied market to go into. I imagine that making a living income would be tough, let alone supporting your family so if you go into that thinking your going to be the next Bill Gates your heading for a right royal reality check. I'm not saying it can't be done as folks are out there doing it but chances are it's a sideline or a hobby thing. From an artists point of view this is actually a bit of strange thing to head for especially when considering the pirating issue. I say that because I know several sculptors who are successful and have very decent incomes but they do not recast their work. They sell originals which means there's little room for the pirates within that equation. I can fully appreciate artists wanting to make their work more widely available and affordable, that's great, it benefits us all but there's no point in asking for a refund on your shark suit when you've already jumped in naked and had your arm bitten of.

The biggest pitfall, the one that I've seen so many artists fail in business with, is the basic skin issue. I'll draw your attention at this point back to the entertaining furore in one of the new Battat figure threads for this one but I wont pass specific comment. This is directly relevant to what happened there. Basically, if you're going to go into business with your creativity, by definition a personal thing, you'd better have a thick skin. By thick skin I mean as thick as the Earths crust is. For every person that loves what you do there will be at least five that hate it and a million who are totally indifferent. If you can't take the hate and indifference as well as the love you are in the wrong business. It's that simple. If the hate gets to you it will make you miserable and your career will be a trial of misery. You've got to have tunnel vision and be completely focused on what you do. Folks will have an opinion and it's only right that you acknowledge those opinions but you never ever solicit criticism from anyone other than your (trusted) peers. If you do that you end up bogged down in indecision and you will produce your worst work ever and find yourself way off of your original vision and miserable. I know dozens of artists who've been there and arrived at the same conclusion. That one is a tough lesson to learn.

I'm straying a little here but I want to comment on something Doug said because there's an important point to raise there. That said, I do not know Doug except by having a vague understanding that he is connected in some way with Safari, as I don't spend much time around here anymore for various reasons. My aim is not to offend Doug but point out a moral contradiction and illustrate how the corporate spin works.

Now I don't hate Safari as a company I just don't care for their products or their corporate attitude. They aren't the only company whose products I don't buy and there are other companies that operate in the same way. It's kind of irrelevant to me to be honest as I very rarely buy new figures. That said, I'm up to date with Papo. I haven't bought any sell through figures from Safari in years and have no intention of buying any. That is after all, my choice as a consumer just as it's my choice to buy bootleg toy figures if I so choose to. I did gleefully buy two Safari knock offs a while back, hell, there's still anarchy in the old dog yet!

Doug gave us the Coca Cola pattern picture of Safari as follows:

Company A is the company I work for, they are family owned, employ a large number of American citizens, produce new dinosaurs paying for up to date representations, actively communicate with their fans eliciting their requests and sometimes putting those requests into production. They donate toys and money from their profits to educational organizations and groups that help underprivileged children, they also donate toys and money to conservation groups like a group dedicated to saving asiatic elephants. They offer up free toys to groups like the DinoToyBlog to help out with contests.

As you can see there's all the right bells and whistles in there. I'm not going to add any further comment to that because I can't see any way of pointing out the obvious without offending American friends which is really not my intention at all.

My point then is simple. MADE IN CHINA.



       

[amanda]

Man, you know I love ya, but I think I lost you on one of the turns there, and am now totally befuddled.

[DinoToyForum]

@Blackdanter. There's a lot to say in response to your post, but I'll keep it brief and on topic. I find it sad and confusing that anyone in this hobby would adopt an attitude that proactively and gleefully damages it by endorsing criminal activity. Do the knock-off companies you're supporting possess the morals you claim the legitimate toy companies lack? I would maintain that they are no better and a lot worse. I guess I don't understand the anarchist philosophy.

[Doug Watson]

I will let what I said earlier on the actual topic stand.

[tyrantqueen]

I agree with you Dr. Admin.

[Simon]

Blackdanter - thanks for the thoughtful and interesting commentary.  As a believer in the free market and especially free trade, am I not offended by your last "point" in the least.  Nor do I see anything wrong with having American toys made in China, as they once (40-50 years ago) were Made in Japan.  Both countries' citizens benefit.  But from here on we can get into politico-economic discussions and that is not my intent.  The older I get the more I realize how darned confusing economics and world markets really are.  No need to display my ignorance, or put everyone to sleep.

The part of your post that I really find intriguing is the part about the need to have really thick skin as an artist.  I would agree wholeheartedly and only add that what can really, REALLY SUCK in life is when those closest to you - your family - chose to throw darts at you and your dreams. You can't chose your family, so if you're surrounded by non-supportive critical personality types it can really be infuriating not to mention disheartening. Those of you who actually have received supportive words as you've pursued your own artistic goals and dreams in life have no clue how lucky you really are.

Regarding the "knock-off" companies, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

[UK]

Really enjoying the debate, the dark side of me is understanding Mr Tucker 's view on here but I also sympathise with Doug too. I suppose imitation can be seen as a form of flattery and I think it has probably happened to all sorts of designs and products for time immemorial.

In terms of economics and exploiting Asian markets for their cheap labour, I wonder if many of those employees producing premium brands in their native countries could afford or justify buying the premium brands rather than the less desirable but more financially reachable knock offs.

Let's look after our environment, pay liveable wages across the world and start manufacturing in our our own countries again. Great Britain has a great manufacturing tradition, unfortunately decimated by profit margins offered through employing far eastern people on terrible wages and often in apalling working conditions.

[amanda]

I don't know that I see a conversation regarding business ethics really impacts whether these knock offs are morally wrong? But, I am rather straight lined about it. I also have absolutely no moral footing to speak of. I just know that the time and money I have spent acquiring the original pieces has always been satisfying in the end. And in no small amount due to this forum and it's members, which gives me a chance to see the figures, and hear opinions. It has made a big difference in my decision making. The moral/business side of it gets to murky for me. I have never been tempted to get one, but that might mainly be because I do not do thrift stores, or drug stores and so have never come across one. I certainly would not go out of my way to have one shipped to me. But that is purely for the artistic side of it in me.

[Megalosaurus]

Hello.
Guess who is selling Bootlegs / Knockoffs here in México...
Walmart
Here is what I found last night:

Sorry for the dark picture, it was taken in low light conditions.
They consists in the following:
T. Rex =  Papo's running one
Oviraptor = Safari's Dilophosaurus
Triceratops = Safari's one
Eoraptor = Safari's running Velociraptor
Tapejara = Safari's one
Velociraptor = Feathered Guanlong (don't know the company)
Apatosaurus = Safari's one
All for $22.25 USA dollars.
They all have that gluing line in the middle section, are bad painted and have less detail than the originals.
Hey Walmart is selling bootlegs 

But please check this fact: Here in México there isn't any companies selling Papo, Safari nor CollectA. All my figures are adquired online from the UK, USA, Germany, etc, or in flea market. There are only a couple people selling Safari pieces (imported) and the price gets 3 times bigger. So there is no chance to get originals unless you get a Credit Card and a Paypal account, and that is not possible for kids and teenagers (at least here in México). So, kids can play with their bootlegs because they don't have access to the originals.

One last thing to say:
Walmart is selling bootlegs!!! Please call the FBI  !!!

...running to buy my set...  ... just joking  .

[stargatedalek]

the guanlong appears to be the Geoworld model
Geoworld earns no sympathy here

[amanda]

Hello.
Guess who is selling Bootlegs / Knockoffs here in México...
Walmart
Here is what I found last night:

Sorry for the dark picture, it was taken in low light conditions.
They consists in the following:
T. Rex =  Papo's running one
Oviraptor = Safari's Dilophosaurus
Triceratops = Safari's one
Eoraptor = Safari's running Velociraptor
Tapejara = Safari's one
Velociraptor = Feathered Guanlong (don't know the company)
Apatosaurus = Safari's one
All for $22.25 USA dollars.
They all have that gluing line in the middle section, are bad painted and have less detail than the originals.
Hey Walmart is selling bootlegs 

But please check this fact: Here in México there isn't any companies selling Papo, Safari nor CollectA. All my figures are adquired online from the UK, USA, Germany, etc, or in flea market. There are only a couple people selling Safari pieces (imported) and the price gets 3 times bigger. So there is no chance to get originals unless you get a Credit Card and a Paypal account, and that is not possible for kids and teenagers (at least here in México). So, kids can play with their bootlegs because they don't have access to the originals.

One last thing to say:
Walmart is selling bootlegs!!! Please call the FBI  !!!

...running to buy my set...  ... just joking  .

But, to be fair, Walmart did not manufacture or design the product. They only put the products from legit? companies on their shelves. I doubt this gets vetted. So the company that made these abominations is selling bootlegs/knock-offs, Walmart is actually just caught in the middle, probably with no real way to know.  Where Geowolrld is actually making the toys they are marketing, which earns them my ire. See?

[tyrantqueen]

If we informed Safari that Walmart is stocking bootlegs of their products, would they be able to do anything about it?

I also find it quite ironic that there are bootlegs of Geoworld products. Bootleg of a bootleg, much?