Nature of our community

[SBell]

Although we also have some dino experts here, I have myself suggested Mojo to cooperate with DTF as they do with their wildlife range with STS. Have you ever thought why that cooperation never started? Have you seen the REBOR massacre on DTF?

I guess that is why we never heard back from Mojo about the new dinosaurs

I was thinking the same thing--remember when James was actively trying to get suggestions and opinions? And now he's gone. Anthony Beeson (CollectA) doesn't even come around anymore (I don't know if he ever posted, but he used to at least look). Forrest Rodgers no longer comes around. Rebor. Dan Laruso only very rarely. Papo has never come around, but we have threads that hope they are listening (AFAIK, there is no specific indication of that). Nor has Schleich or Bullyland. Look at the recent Safari 2015 thread for another example.

It's almost like they want to share their work, but instead people get all internet on it all, and why subject themselves to that kind of nitpicking and abuse? They work hard. They have a job and work with people that very few people here can lay claim to have done. They are professionals. And despite some claims that collectors are the target, no, they're not. Not usually. It's the toy and/or educator market. Really. This is from trade materials. Collectors of these figures are essentially a small but vocal part of it.

It just seems to me that, whenever a figure is presented, it doesn't take long for two things--one, throwing out what animals should have been done; and two, nitpicking and tearing down other people's work. This is not the behaviour of a friendly and open community. This is trying to make sure that people know that you 'know' stuff. Especially if it's said more than once.

I know it won't change. But it is part of the frustration that keeps seeping into these threads.

[Simon]

Doug Watson had a good post on this last week.  A sculptor needs to have pretty thick skin to last long down here among the "hoi poloi".

[stargatedalek]

what can I say, we can be a highly particular bunch

[Gwangi]

Looking back on the Mojo thread all I'm seeing are comments from November 2012, if Mojo decided not to consult with us I think they did it a long time ago. Did James ever even join or post on the site? If he did, I missed it. Mojo has a lot of potential for their dinosaurs, looking at the pictures on the other forum I see a lot of stuff I like on the model but then there are the parts they get wrong, and they really get them wrong.

I guess it really boils down to what kind of forum this is supposed to be. Is it one where the general collector can come and discuss (for better or worse) the collectables they collect? Or should it be something else that caters to the people who produce these models? I'm not advocating ripping artists or their work apart but if there is something I dislike about a model, I'm going to say it. Chances are I'll have something good to say too but well...read my reviews I guess. I try to be respectful. As for a "friendly and open community", how can you possibly enforce that? We do have a community, a large one, of people from around the world, of every age bracket and culture. It's the internet, so it goes without saying that everyone has an opinion, especially for what they're passionate about. So do you get selective about who can join? Set age limits? Create a 3 strike system?

People should certainly exercise a bit more tact, but members shouldn't have to walk on egg shells because someone of importance decides to join. For all the negative feedback I see regarding a model I see just as much if not more positive feedback. Most of the people discussing the REBOR "Y-rex" still had nice things to say about the model. So what is the forum supposed to do? Stricter rule enforcement? The permanent banning of active members? Who's going to do it? I dunno, I probably have a stronger opinion on the matter than I should. I'm tired of seeing the nitpicking too but the guilt trip stuff gets equally old.

[SBell]

Looking back on the Mojo thread all I'm seeing are comments from November 2012, if Mojo decided not to consult with us I think they did it a long time ago. Did James ever even join or post on the site? If he did, I missed it. Mojo has a lot of potential for their dinosaurs, looking at the pictures on the other forum I see a lot of stuff I like on the model but then there are the parts they get wrong, and they really get them wrong.

I guess it really boils down to what kind of forum this is supposed to be. Is it one where the general collector can come and discuss (for better or worse) the collectables they collect? Or should it be something else that caters to the people who produce these models? I'm not advocating ripping artists or their work apart but if there is something I dislike about a model, I'm going to say it. Chances are I'll have something good to say too but well...read my reviews I guess. I try to be respectful. As for a "friendly and open community", how can you possibly enforce that? We do have a community, a large one, of people from around the world, of every age bracket and culture. It's the internet, so it goes without saying that everyone has an opinion, especially for what they're passionate about. So do you get selective about who can join? Set age limits? Create a 3 strike system?

People should certainly exercise a bit more tact, but members shouldn't have to walk on egg shells because someone of importance decides to join. For all the negative feedback I see regarding a model I see just as much if not more positive feedback. Most of the people discussing the REBOR "Y-rex" still had nice things to say about the model. So what is the forum supposed to do? Stricter rule enforcement? The permanent banning of active members? Who's going to do it? I dunno, I probably have a stronger opinion on the matter than I should. I'm tired of seeing the nitpicking too but the guilt trip stuff gets equally old.

Mostly, I am responding to the question of why companies don't get in touch with the forum. It is likely because of the wide range of experience, knowledge, opinion and personality that colours every thread.Of course, there are many of us that have been directly contacted individually for consultations, but that is different.

And I believe James himself was a member way back then. Hasn't been around since then though.

As for the "open & friendly" part, that's actually the guiding principal of the site (from the landing pages):

Welcome to The Dinosaur Toy Forum!

We are a friendly and open community dedicated to the discussion of prehistoric animal collectibles, palaeoart, pop culture, and palaeontology.

Register today to join in the dino-discussions, vote in polls, chat, and access the hidden members board.

So really, that is what members sign up for.

[Gwangi]

Mostly, I am responding to the question of why companies don't get in touch with the forum. It is likely because of the wide range of experience, knowledge, opinion and personality that colours every thread.Of course, there are many of us that have been directly contacted individually for consultations, but that is different.

And I believe James himself was a member way back then. Hasn't been around since then though.

As for the "open & friendly" part, that's actually the guiding principal of the site (from the landing pages):

Welcome to The Dinosaur Toy Forum!

We are a friendly and open community dedicated to the discussion of prehistoric animal collectibles, palaeoart, pop culture, and palaeontology.

Register today to join in the dino-discussions, vote in polls, chat, and access the hidden members board.

So really, that is what members sign up for.

In my experience, people don't follow unenforced rules. That goes for the work place, internet forums and the world in general. As much as we would love it if people governed (or moderated) themselves it just isn't going to happen. If it did, you and I would not be having this off topic conversation in the Mojo thread, we would have moved it elsewhere. Unfortunately the only way you're going to maintain an "open and friendly community" is through strict enforcement of those rules, there are just too many members to expect otherwise. Although one could argue that the "open" part in that opening is another word for honest and being honest is all a lot of these members are doing in the first place. I realize that no one wants to play the bad guy and the moderators are busy enough as is, just stating how it works.

EDIT: Personally I'm less upset about the loss of some of these professionals and more upset over the loss of a lot of great members who don't come around any more. The active member turnover rate seems pretty high to me. I don't know why they leave, just an observation.

[Takama]

Personally, im no longer worried (Or have a problem) if Mojo is not participating on this forum.  It would just mean that the consultation bourd should be removed.

Im more interested in there mammals now. as they are the best I ever seen

[tyrantqueen]

I was thinking the same thing--remember when James was actively trying to get suggestions and opinions? And now he's gone. Anthony Beeson (CollectA) doesn't even come around anymore (I don't know if he ever posted, but he used to at least look). Forrest Rodgers no longer comes around. Rebor. Dan Laruso only very rarely. Papo has never come around, but we have threads that hope they are listening (AFAIK, there is no specific indication of that). Nor has Schleich or Bullyland. Look at the recent Safari 2015 thread for another example.

I didn't even know Anthony Beeson had an account . I remember it being mentioned that Forest Rogers was considering joining the forum but it never happened (afaik). And Dan LoRusso, I see him online a fair amount (at least once a day).

[SBell]

I was thinking the same thing--remember when James was actively trying to get suggestions and opinions? And now he's gone. Anthony Beeson (CollectA) doesn't even come around anymore (I don't know if he ever posted, but he used to at least look). Forrest Rodgers no longer comes around. Rebor. Dan Laruso only very rarely. Papo has never come around, but we have threads that hope they are listening (AFAIK, there is no specific indication of that). Nor has Schleich or Bullyland. Look at the recent Safari 2015 thread for another example.

I didn't even know Anthony Beeson had an account . I remember it being mentioned that Forest Rogers was considering joining the forum but it never happened (afaik). And Dan LoRusso, I see him online a fair amount (at least once a day).

I think Anthony lurked but didn't participate.

[Bokisaurus]

I don't see any difference The detailing looks inferior to the stock image, but that might be due to the lighting and the closeness of the photography. Maybe they fixed the hands.

I just checked out the conversation that Concavenator and Roger were having on that thread btw.

Although we also have some dino experts here, I have myself suggested Mojo to cooperate with DTF as they do with their wildlife range with STS. Have you ever thought why that cooperation never started? Have you seen the REBOR massacre on DTF?

I guess that is why we never heard back from Mojo about the new dinosaurs

I was thinking the same thing--remember when James was actively trying to get suggestions and opinions? And now he's gone. Anthony Beeson (CollectA) doesn't even come around anymore (I don't know if he ever posted, but he used to at least look). Forrest Rodgers no longer comes around. Rebor. Dan Laruso only very rarely. Papo has never come around, but we have threads that hope they are listening (AFAIK, there is no specific indication of that). Nor has Schleich or Bullyland. Look at the recent Safari 2015 thread for another example.

It's almost like they want to share their work, but instead people get all internet on it all, and why subject themselves to that kind of nitpicking and abuse? They work hard. They have a job and work with people that very few people here can lay claim to have done. They are professionals. And despite some claims that collectors are the target, no, they're not. Not usually. It's the toy and/or educator market. Really. This is from trade materials. Collectors of these figures are essentially a small but vocal part of it.

It just seems to me that, whenever a figure is presented, it doesn't take long for two things--one, throwing out what animals should have been done; and two, nitpicking and tearing down other people's work. This is not the behaviour of a friendly and open community. This is trying to make sure that people know that you 'know' stuff. Especially if it's said more than once.

I know it won't change. But it is part of the frustration that keeps seeping into these threads.

I completely agree with you here. It seems like there has been so much negativity and overly nitpicking things that it has become so frustratingly and tiring to read some of these post these days. It would have been great to have these artist be forum members, but with some of the negative stuff that just keeps on coming, I don't blame them if they don't bother with the forum.

[DinoToyForum]

As for the dinosaur toy forum being open and friendly, I really believe it is. At least, as far as forums go, we do pretty well. The STS is incredibly friendly, sometimes to the point of being saccharine - I don't know quite how they achieve that - they have something really special there. It is worth noting that the ATF also has a homely atmosphere (although it is a lot smaller than both the STS and DTF). I think it helps when the whole community is in agreement, which is easily achieved for animal figure collectors. Dinosaurs, on the other hand, invite debate and speculation, in a way that modern animals do not - this results in a variety of opinions. This is part of what makes the topic fascinating, and we should embrace that.

The diversity of opinion on the forum, when it comes to what prehistoric animals looked like, will make it difficult for companies to gather useful information from a consultation process with an entire community. A case of too many cooks spoiling the broth, I think. Also, companies have to be coy about sharing their plans on a public forum - they have competition who might be listening in. A one on one consultation is a better way to go.

[CityRaptor]

I think contructive criticism is a good thing.  Looking at that one STS forum thread, the one where Roger claimed that it was due to REBOR, we see a complete lack of criticism on part of the STS, expect from Concavenator. Besides the whole REBOR thing was due to REBOR claiming the model was accurate, but only having it half feathered and calling it Y-Rex, wasn't it?

I also see Doug Watson coming here often enough. There was some tension between him and TQ at the beginning, due to feet-size, but that has been solved, hasn't it? And Dan LoRusso just posted here yesterday or so....

I think we should be friendly, but critical when needed.

[postsaurischian]

The fact that we are discussing this subject matter in a second thread speaks for itself.
My reason to be part of the forum is getting and spreading information (... and posting pics ... of course).
Regarding this, scaring away the artists and companies that fulfill my childhood dreams is very contraindicated. I wish some of our members would finally understand this!

I for one deeply regret that we couldn't maintain the contact with some of the creators. I remember that even artist like Hirokazu Tokugawa had to acquiesce in indignities. It's a matter of education and I'm afraid it's hard to change that afterwards.

It makes me a bit sad to see Blackdanter only posting on the STS, brontodocus only posting on the ATF or Himmapaan having disappeared almost completely. These are just three examples of members (who were highly informative and creative) that obviously left because of those selfish, arrogant and pointless discussions. I miss them. I also thought about moving over completely to the STS, but due to my conservative nature and the DTF's specialisation in palaeontology I'm staying here.

To those who simply need some space to dump their aggression and everyday frustration, go find you some sports club and overexert yourself at one point! You will see that this can be very healthful.

Yes, constructive criticism is a good thing. But think about the word "constructive"!
It only makes sense during the "construction process". Afterwards it's nothing but nagging.

[DinoToyForum]

Excellent post Helge. Thanks for your comments - I hope all members really take it in

I'm glad you decided to stay, despite your misgivings! Hopefully, in time, we can tempt back some of those retirees.

[tyrantqueen]

It's a shame that ReborStudios got insulted, but the appropriate parties were punished for their actions and there was a change in rules so that behaviour of that kind can't be repeated in future. That's a good thing. Surely we can look back on this and try to improve ourselves for the future. I'm trying too.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

It's a shame that ReborStudios got insulted, but the appropriate parties were punished for their actions and there was a change in rules so that behaviour of that kind can't be repeated in future. That's a good thing. Surely we can look back on this and try to improve ourselves for the future. I'm trying too.

It is always easier cleaning someone else's garage rather than your own and I am sure I have a stack of faults I need to address for sure. ...having said that I did want to say when I first came to the forum I was often shocked by how Tyrannt Queen spoke or commented to others and found it hard to understand....but I have seen a huge change in how she does things and approaches people and directs herself and actually think I need to find ways to be more like her. I have seen a huge change, wether by growing up or just adjusting and I actually consider her a friend and work well with her on various things.....and it is quite obvious to me at least. She has truly become to me a great member of the forum to talk to and share with .And I hope that I said that so I dint offend or come off wrong.

[Patrx]

Good points all around, I think.

I think we should be friendly, but critical when needed.

That's where I stand as well. There is some nuance to it, though, striking that balance. This is and should remain a friendly, polite place, distinct in that way from the majority of websites and social media networks. However, criticism is, for many of us, an important aspect of the forum.

As has been recently commentated on by many noteworthy persons in the field, palaeoart is experiencing some major problems in terms of accuracy, education, and originality. I think many of us feel a sense of responsibility to address those problems, and being able to communicate directly with sculptors and other palaeoartists provides a unique and valuable opportunity to do so. It is, therefore, very disappointing when that opportunity is wasted or jeopardized by commentary that is perhaps less than tactful or constructive. The passion to push palaeoart toward improvement can, I think, cause lapses in politeness, and this is a shame. So, as someone here (Tyrantqueen?) once advised: don't post while angry. Nobody wants to listen to critique from someone who isn't being nice.

[tyrantqueen]

It's a shame that ReborStudios got insulted, but the appropriate parties were punished for their actions and there was a change in rules so that behaviour of that kind can't be repeated in future. That's a good thing. Surely we can look back on this and try to improve ourselves for the future. I'm trying too.

It is always easier cleaning someone else's garage rather than your own and I am sure I have a stack of faults I need to address for sure. ...having said that I did want to say when I first came to the forum I was often shocked by how Tyrannt Queen spoke or commented to others and found it hard to understand....but I have seen a huge change in how she does things and approaches people and directs herself and actually think I need to find ways to be more like her. I have seen a huge change, wether by growing up or just adjusting and I actually consider her a friend and work well with her on various things.....and it is quite obvious to me at least. She has truly become to me a great member of the forum to talk to and share with .And I hope that I said that so I dint offend or come off wrong.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm not good with people, to be honest, but it's very encouraging to hear that, and I'll do my best to keep it up

[Simon]

The impersonal nature of the Internet, combined with the fact that it invites "instant reaction" (ie not very well thought out) made the new medium of "bulletin boards" or discussion groups a very rude place to be in its early days in the 1990s.  (This is my own personal observation here.)

The normal boundaries of learned human behaviour that lead most people to treat others, with whom they are having an eye-to-eye discussion, with at least a modicum of respect, are absent.  Therefore a basic discussion filter in the human psyche that serves to weed out or prevent one from blurting out rude or ad hominem commentary is missing.  So trouble can develop in several different ways (this is not meant to be a comprehensive list by any means, its just what comes to me off the cuff):

Situation 1:  This has an unfortunate effect of causing people who are by their nature opinionated or whose moods tend to shall we say, be more volatile than average, to fly off the handle far more easily than would happen "in real life." 

Situation 2:  Then there is the phenomenon of the Internet "troll" (ie a rude malicious individual who throws out inappropriate or rude stuff on purpose just to get a reaction.) 

Situation 3:  Then there is the immaturity aspect which mostly (but not always) is a manifestation of youth.  The give and take of a teenage group of friends would seem to be terribly out of place in a discussion with older individuals.  Worst of all, the nature of the medium means that you have no idea to whom you are "conversing" via the keyboard.  Hence the possibility of misunderstanding that leaves both parties unsatisfied (Person A:  You insulted me!  Person B: Dude, chill - I'm just talking a little trash - go with it!)

Without a new set of rules of procedure, its an invitation to chaos.  Anyone who has ever spent 5 minutes reading through comments found on political-type discussion groups knows exactly what this can look like.

Hence the development of the rules under which the boards operate.  Its a continuing and constantly evolving balance.

One other thing that affects this board more than others is the transitory nature of the membership - ie new people pop in and out every day.

The bottom line is that the exercise of individual self-control is the only "foolproof" way to keep things civil.

[stargatedalek]

I'm often told I come of as unemotional, cold, etc. especially when critiquing something
its something I try and work on, to try and remain constructive I always try and make sure I don't just list a problem, but also a possible solution