Wild Safari vs Carnegie Collection

[Gwangi]

Having worked with cattle I can testify that not all cows are as placid as one would think, they can be pretty damn scary! But their generally placid nature has more to do with domestication than anything else. Wild bovine species (bison, cape buffalo etc.) can be very dangerous. Personally I like to think of ceratopsians as behaving similar to something like a wild boar. But who can say?

[tyrantqueen]

And temperament can vary from individual to individual as well. But it's all speculation anyway

[suspsy]

I always envisioned ceratopsids as behaving like gaur and other wild bovids.

[Dinoguy2]

Quick note regarding quills, I agree with amargasaurus that the idea Lane has evidence for Psittacosaurus like quills is just not there. How ever, Lane has those bumps all over the hide, not just along the midline as in psittacosaurus. So I can only assume the quills on the Collecta ceratopsians are based on Psittacosaurus alone and NOT Lane. Still rather silly to give them the exact same kind. It's plausible ceratopsids would have some kind of filaments, but surely their size and arrangement would vary from species to species and not be identical to a distant cousin species.

What would be cool would be an interpretation using John Conway's newest Triceratops, with keratinous spines, rather than quills, forming as extensions of the scale nubbins.

[suspsy]

While I like the CollectA quills, it certainly would be cool if they tried giving future ceratopsids an array of filaments, quills, or whatever one chooses to call them. The problem is, that would be a challenge for any sculptor, an entire array of quills spread out across a wide area. Durability would be another issue.

[Dinoguy2]

While I like the CollectA quills, it certainly would be cool if they tried giving future ceratopsids an array of filaments, quills, or whatever one chooses to call them. The problem is, that would be a challenge for any sculptor, an entire array of quills spread out across a wide area. Durability would be another issue.

They could also mix it up by putting quills in various other places, like as a "beard" or fringe along the belly, tail tip, etc., rather than copying Psittacosaurus for every one.

[suspsy]

That would also be nice. You should email CollectA and offer them that suggestion. They're probably tired of hearing from me.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I believe you are likely referencing either more basal ceratopsians in these artists works or pieces that are dated somewhat...I dont know of anyone that seriously considers this a possibility or even likely anymore.

Nope, neither basal nor outdated. The examples of paleontologists and paleoartists I cited are all recent ones from the last few years. Luis Rey did this piece in 2013.

https://luisvrey.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/rextri-b1.jpg

And then there's the Triceratops John Conway did for All Yesterdays:

http://johnconway.co/ay_triceratops

Both works are purely speculative and the artists make no claim to the contrary. It's just them being creative and having fun. And also pointing out that paleontology remains a very speculative field. Which is why I'm cool with a toy company doing the same. Quills on ceratopsids is unproven, yes, but it's not actually harming anybody.

Regarding the final matter, I am unsure why it would be keen to appraise a figure you admit you do not have, based on pictures, and yet criticize others for ....appraising figures from pictures right? cmon........

I already explained the obvious difference between the two situations. Go back and reread it if you're unsure. Or watch the YouTube link I shared.

Anyway, I am curious now to read this psittacosaur information. Thank you for sharing it.

Correct, each work you posted was stated and explained as highly speculative and make note neither demonstrates psittacosaurus style quills....i
And finally regarding the paper Suspy, I am glad to share any paper I have or can get. There are a few here who can also attest to the massive list of free book downloads I have dropped them just for asking....I also have a thread in the forum where I have posted quite a few papers although it could use more for sure.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Quick note regarding quills, I agree with amargasaurus that the idea Lane has evidence for Psittacosaurus like quills is just not there. How ever, Lane has those bumps all over the hide, not just along the midline as in psittacosaurus. So I can only assume the quills on the Collecta ceratopsians are based on Psittacosaurus alone and NOT Lane. Still rather silly to give them the exact same kind. It's plausible ceratopsids would have some kind of filaments, but surely their size and arrangement would vary from species to species and not be identical to a distant cousin species.

What would be cool would be an interpretation using John Conway's newest Triceratops, with keratinous spines, rather than quills, forming as extensions of the scale nubbins.

Yes this !! Precisely what I am saying.....even the people who suggested Lane might have quills modeled them more in random placement all over the animal rather than clumped psittacosaurus style in a bush down the back. This is what makes models that display this feature so ridiculous....and Kaiyodo has done this as well with their recent ceratopsian capsule set;

[Mamasaurus]

All the info here on various models from WS and Carnegie is most helpful.  Thank you.  I don't have any figures since I've basically just started taking a look at what toys are available and how accurate they are.  I want my son to have the most realistic figures I can get, since I would do the same for any other animal figure.  I wouldn't get a plastic fox that looks half dog, half cat. 

As far as the post about the hippo a while back...hippos are known to be even more dangerous than lions, and cause more human deaths.  Many animals that we assume to be fairly docile are highly aggressive and incredibly dangerous.  Cattle, for example, almost failed to be domesticated because their wild relatives were too large and aggressive.  If I remember correctly, all cattle can be genetically traced to a single herd of about 100 individuals.  Once someone finally figured it out, everyone else stopped trying and just traded for an animal from that one herd.     I imagine many ceratopsians would be similarly difficult to manage.

[suspsy]

Amargasaurus, have you gotten around yet to emailing CollectA about possibly altering or improving the quills on their ceratopsids? In my experience, they've always been very friendly and open to feedback.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Amargasaurus, have you gotten around yet to emailing CollectA about possibly altering or improving the quills on their ceratopsids? In my experience, they've always been very friendly and open to feedback.

Not really that impressed with their reponse so far, as regards the duplication controversy. Honestly if I were to contact them regarding their ceratopsians, quills would seem a minor issue in compare to the mangled rostrals, incorrect hands, badly sculpted feet, incorrect ishium shapes, mishappen heads, hideous color choices (which I do admit is personnal taste) etc. Where would I start? Not sure why that is germaine to the safari vs carnegie collection, aside from that safari ceratopsians are far more well researched in general and portray far more accurate science, than most models availible on the market today. Carnegie models also are well researched, but I think Dougs models are raising the bar on what is possible. Just my feelings really. I was just really blown away with what he did with the Nasuto, and for that matter sauropelta.....and I have said that over and over. For me his Nasuto model is definitive subject to the release of Dan's forthcoming release. I will wager you a small gentlemans bet and suggest Dan's model will not be quilled, will have correct feet and hands and the rostral will be exectuted well. s
   Having said that I think purchasing one brand or another is personnal taste and speaks to why someone collects that set of models. Mine are not purchased for play or to experiment in some speculative art form . I have to present things which are accurate and reflect current science , because my ceratopsians are part of a display featuring the actual skeleton I have, and are seen by thousands each year. If you have ever thumbed through my psittacosaurus collection, I think it is a fair comment to state I have one of the most versatile, and all encompassing collections regarding this one dinosaur that you will ever see ....I have spent what some might consider exhaustive efforts . The sculpts for some of my models were in fact rendered from photographs of this skeleton. I even have models that are painted according to the published information making this perhaps the one non theropod dinosaur we not only have scale patterns and coloration for, but can accurately state colors, patterns, scale sizes and shapes. I insist on acuracy in this particular display...I have to. If I get it wrong, I have five thousand potential experts that will notice the mistakes.
   I hope that helps you understand my feelings about ceratopsians and my disdain for the less well done models. For me its the one area of my collection I want right......I have no other choice.

[suspsy]

Amargasaurus, have you gotten around yet to emailing CollectA about possibly altering or improving the quills on their ceratopsids? In my experience, they've always been very friendly and open to feedback.

Not really that impressed with their reponse so far, as regards the duplication controversy.

I actually was very impressed by the general manager's prompt and lucid response in dispelling the false notion that CollectA recycles their moulds.

Not sure why that is germaine to the safari vs carnegie collection,

Because you've been very vocal on this quill issue for the past few days, both in this thread and elsewhere. Clearly, you are very well-read on the subject of ceratopsids. And you said yourself in that other thread that you were definitely going to contact CollectA. I think it's a fine idea for you to be proactive and share your extensive knowledge with them. It certainly beats simply complaining about their figures here. You say you wouldn't know where to start, and I agree that it wouldn't be prudent or tactful to send them that entire list you described. So start by politely bringing up the quill issue with them, and perhaps another item selected from your list. What harm could it do you to try? At worst, you can say you made an effort to help CollectA improve their products. And at best, they heed your suggestions and implement them into future products, and you can say you had a direct hand in putting improved ceratopsid figures on the market.

 

I will wager you a small gentleman a bet and suggest Dan's model will not be quilled, will have correct feet and hands and the rostral will be exectuted well.

No thank you. But I'm sure any future model Dan releases will be impressive.

And that's very interesting about your psittacosaur collection. Is that your actual job, presenting your display, or simply a passionate hobby?

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Amargasaurus, have you gotten around yet to emailing CollectA about possibly altering or improving the quills on their ceratopsids? In my experience, they've always been very friendly and open to feedback.

Not really that impressed with their reponse so far, as regards the duplication controversy.

I actually was very impressed by the general manager's prompt and lucid response in dispelling the false notion that CollectA recycles their moulds.

Not sure why that is germaine to the safari vs carnegie collection,

Because you've been very vocal on this quill issue for the past few days, both in this thread and elsewhere. Clearly, you are very well-read on the subject of ceratopsids. And you said yourself in that other thread that you were definitely going to contact CollectA. I think it's a fine idea for you to be proactive and share your extensive knowledge with them. It certainly beats simply complaining about their figures here. You say you wouldn't know where to start, and I agree that it wouldn't be prudent or tactful to send them that entire list you described. So start by politely bringing up the quill issue with them, and perhaps another item selected from your list. What harm could it do you to try? At worst, you can say you made an effort to help CollectA improve their products. And at best, they heed your suggestions and implement them into future products, and you can say you had a direct hand in putting improved ceratopsid figures on the market.

 

I will wager you a small gentleman a bet and suggest Dan's model will not be quilled, will have correct feet and hands and the rostral will be exectuted well.

No thank you. But I'm sure any future model Dan releases will be impressive.

And that's very interesting about your psittacosaur collection. Is that your actual job, presenting your display, or simply a passionate hobby?

I honestly felt his reponse was spin control, I trust what my own eyes can see further than a denial by someone that I do not know...thats just my gut reaction.A complete denial was the worst possible response in light of the obvious similarities. Again my two cents and not trying to open this can of worms further.

   I may consider emailing them regarding some of the issues with their ceratopsian figures  . I do think they need a major overhaul and perhaps you are right and I could at least offer some input . I will take that one under advisement, you are perhaps correct Suspy. I concede that simply complaining the state of affairs fixes nothing and is bad energy.

  Regarding the how and what of what I do ...I do what I do with dinosaurs and so forth as a hobby and form of enjoyment. I belong to a local gem and mineral society. These clubs are nationwide and are generally affiliated with the American Federation Gem and Mineral Society. For instance I live in Kansas, so my local club is affiliated with the Rocky Mountain Gem and MIneral society, an  11 state organization. I know...what does a gem and mineral society have to do with dinosaurs right? The organizations charter is dedicated to earth science...including paleo studies so that gives me an in. I also make semi precious mineral spheres, a hobby my grandfather did for this same club forty years ago. The net result is that I can write, create, photograph and make things for the clubs monthly newsletter, and mine are generally dinosaur focused. They are then generally printed for the local newsletter, and then submitted to the regional 11 state area for possible reprint, and then the national etc. In additon we do an annual show, once a year locally, as well as regional and nationwide shows. IN our local group I am that guy that does dinosaurs.....its my own little niche. At each show I present dinosaur fossils, my skeleton, my collection of dinosaur eggs and shells, and often displays of dinosaur models to a certain theme or reason. In addition I do a display of the mineral spheres, that present spheres done by my grandfather, father and myself. The first day of our show we bus in five thousand local school kids, and walk them through all the displays and then give them a thirty minute class on minerals and geology. The other two days of the show dealers sell their wares, and people visit the displays which are mostly educational in purpose. In years past I have presented alongside Michael Everhart, from Oceans of Kansas Fame , and many others. If any of you have a club like this in your local area, it is great to get involved with and highly entertaining ...and if you use dinosaurs as your niche, you will likely have a monopoly on the topic !!!Given the large numbers of people that see my displays , they have to be accurate and they have to be researchable and verifiable. For instance all those schoolkids have teachers , and they tend to fact check everything

[Meso-Cenozoic]

Just a quick aside from the main topic...

Wow, amargasaurus cazaui, I found the details of your "hobby" (sounds much more involved than a mere hobby ) quite fascinating. I also like that it has been a tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation. Good for you! I just have one question, then I promise to stop sabotaging this thread.   With your vast knowledge and love for ceratopsians, especially Psittacosaurus, how did you come to choose your username?

OK, back on topic. Suspsy, I think you will really like the WS Elasmosaurus. I was first afraid it was going to be rather small, like the Kinto Favorite line figure, and then wouldn't have as much presence compared to the Carnegie figure (despite its swan neck). Although it is a little smaller than Carnegie's, it's quite a bit larger than the Kinto. You'll especially love the head! I can't believe the tiny details they got on it, especially those long, sharp, splayed teeth!   BTW, Elasmosaurus is my favorite prehistoric marine reptile. So when it comes to newer representations of this particular plesiosaur, I really try and search out the nicer ones. And this guy easily fits the bill.

[suspsy]

I honestly felt his reponse was spin control, I trust what my own eyes can see further than a denial by someone that I do not know...thats just my gut reaction.A complete denial was the worst possible response in light of the obvious similarities. Again my two cents and not trying to open this can of worms further.

And as I stated in that other thead, anyone who chooses to disbelieve the word of the general manager of CollectA can go right ahead. As far as I am concerned, the accusations have been dispelled, the matter is resolved, and there is no point in debating it further. That's my two cents.

 

I may consider emailing them regarding some of the issues with their ceratopsian figures  . I do think they need a major overhaul and perhaps you are right and I could at least offer some input . I will take that one under advisement, you are perhaps correct Suspy. I concede that simply complaining the state of affairs fixes nothing and is bad energy.

Good! I hope you decide to go through it. And I hope you will not be insulted when I ask that you please be courteous in your correspondence with CollectA. Their ceratopsids could use some more scientific accuracy, but friendly advice will likely sink in better than forceful advice. I'm sure you're aware of that.

And that's great that you're taking personal time to better educate the public about prehistory. Goodness knows it's necessary in this day and age. I sometimes wish I could do that sort of thing myself, but between two jobs, planning my wedding, and looking to buy a house, I have no time for such endeavours. Indeed, I believe I'm lucky that my fiancée is willing to accommodate my dinosaur hobby. As I noted in my review of the Deluxe Therizinosaurus, she thinks a lot of my figures are really creepy.

And thank you, Meso-Cenozoic, for your thoughts on the Elasmosaurus. I'll have to investigate further. Again, my budget this year is admittedly tight. Probably shouldn't be starting threads like this in the first place!

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Just a quick aside from the main topic...

Wow, amargasaurus cazaui, I found the details of your "hobby" (sounds much more involved than a mere hobby ) quite fascinating. I also like that it has been a tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation. Good for you! I just have one question, then I promise to stop sabotaging this thread.   With your vast knowledge and love for ceratopsians, especially Psittacosaurus, how did you come to choose your username?

OK, back on topic. Suspsy, I think you will really like the WS Elasmosaurus. I was first afraid it was going to be rather small, like the Kinto Favorite line figure, and then wouldn't have as much presence compared to the Carnegie figure (despite its swan neck). Although it is a little smaller than Carnegie's, it's quite a bit larger than the Kinto. You'll especially love the head! I can't believe the tiny details they got on it, especially those long, sharp, splayed teeth!   BTW, Elasmosaurus is my favorite prehistoric marine reptile. So when it comes to newer representations of this particular plesiosaur, I really try and search out the nicer ones. And this guy easily fits the bill.

When I joined the forum amargasaurus was my favorite dinosaur.....I was in the very preliminary stages of purchasing the psittacosaurus skeleton. I can only state that once you spend a few thousand dollars for one item in your collection it tends to take front and center place in your efforts. So I am a psittacosaur person with an amargasaurus name..the forum allows only one name so I have used the one I have despite the changes in my own ......ideas.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I honestly felt his reponse was spin control, I trust what my own eyes can see further than a denial by someone that I do not know...thats just my gut reaction.A complete denial was the worst possible response in light of the obvious similarities. Again my two cents and not trying to open this can of worms further.

And as I stated in that other thead, anyone who chooses to disbelieve the word of the general manager of CollectA can go right ahead. As far as I am concerned, the accusations have been dispelled, the matter is resolved, and there is no point in debating it further. That's my two cents.

 

I may consider emailing them regarding some of the issues with their ceratopsian figures  . I do think they need a major overhaul and perhaps you are right and I could at least offer some input . I will take that one under advisement, you are perhaps correct Suspy. I concede that simply complaining the state of affairs fixes nothing and is bad energy.

Good! I hope you decide to go through it. And I hope you will not be insulted when I ask that you please be courteous in your correspondence with CollectA. Their ceratopsids could use some more scientific accuracy, but friendly advice will likely sink in better than forceful advice. I'm sure you're aware of that.

And that's great that you're taking personal time to better educate the public about prehistory. Goodness knows it's necessary in this day and age. I sometimes wish I could do that sort of thing myself, but between two jobs, planning my wedding, and looking to buy a house, I have no time for such endeavours. Indeed, I believe I'm lucky that my fiancée is willing to accommodate my dinosaur hobby. As I noted in my review of the Deluxe Therizinosaurus, she thinks a lot of my figures are really creepy.

And thank you, Meso-Cenozoic, for your thoughts on the Elasmosaurus. I'll have to investigate further. Again, my budget this year is admittedly tight. Probably shouldn't be starting threads like this in the first place!

Again, I trust my own eyes far further than a spokesman that is paid to make public statements, sorry. I also found his reponse an admittance of sort..in that he stated that an animal with four legs can only be posed and modeled so many ways..basically stating they are in fact at the very least hugely reusing poses, and so forth. And that itself is spin, you can model a dinosaur dozens of ways...head raised, head lowered, running, walking resting, etc. In essecnce the very nature of his argument is an admission they are doing what is stated.. failing to create original models. He as much as said this himself, not sure why thats so hard to understand. it is not a debate, and they are not accusations..they are observations and it is that simple. He failed to satisfactorily in any way demonstrate any reasonable proof otherwise . Nothing , just denial. So no, i find his answer quite lacking sorry.Which relates to your next comments..advice, and problem solving. first step is always admitting there is a problem, before it can be fixed. I am not seeing that here, which is discouraging and makes me dubious about efforts to advise or offer ideas. If we cannot get past denial of the existing issues how can we hope to fix them.
   As far as taking the time..I am over fifty, attend a diabetic cat, work two jobs, produce my spheres , and also write and create for the newsletter in addition to my hobby. I also am active collecting comics and have other collections that require time and effort, but I make the time for educational reasons because it is needed sorely and a great cause. I dont have the fiancee thing to cope with nor a house, though. that sounds like a huge load to carry.

[Meso-Cenozoic]

Just a quick aside from the main topic...

Wow, amargasaurus cazaui, I found the details of your "hobby" (sounds much more involved than a mere hobby ) quite fascinating. I also like that it has been a tradition that has been passed down from generation to generation. Good for you! I just have one question, then I promise to stop sabotaging this thread.   With your vast knowledge and love for ceratopsians, especially Psittacosaurus, how did you come to choose your username?

OK, back on topic. Suspsy, I think you will really like the WS Elasmosaurus. I was first afraid it was going to be rather small, like the Kinto Favorite line figure, and then wouldn't have as much presence compared to the Carnegie figure (despite its swan neck). Although it is a little smaller than Carnegie's, it's quite a bit larger than the Kinto. You'll especially love the head! I can't believe the tiny details they got on it, especially those long, sharp, splayed teeth!   BTW, Elasmosaurus is my favorite prehistoric marine reptile. So when it comes to newer representations of this particular plesiosaur, I really try and search out the nicer ones. And this guy easily fits the bill.

When I joined the forum amargasaurus was my favorite dinosaur.....I was in the very preliminary stages of purchasing the psittacosaurus skeleton. I can only state that once you spend a few thousand dollars for one item in your collection it tends to take front and center place in your efforts. So I am a psittacosaur person with an amargasaurus name..the forum allows only one name so I have used the one I have despite the changes in my own ......ideas.

Ah, OK. Makes perfect "cents".

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Well Meso-Cenooic, I have thought about asking if I could switch to a more psittacosaur friendly name in the past however it would lock me out of the threads I have worked hard to build and make already...the three psittacosaur threads, team sauropod, the dinosaur eggs thread, collecting dinosaur bones thread, saurian sightings, the dinosaur bone sphere collection....there are quite a few threads ive made here that I attempt to keep up with. I am the main one here posting anything ever about dinosaur eggs, collecting, prepping and so forth of actual dinosaur bones, and of course the psittacosaur threads , but also things like the autographed figures thread, which I think was unique to the forum as well. Just so many i would have to redo that it is daunting even if I could switch over.....