Jack Horner says he was forced out of his museum

[suspsy]

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/education/famed-paleontologist-horner-says-he-was-pushed-out-of-museum/article_f096c719-bb02-568c-91b5-97a19703464b.html

Sounds like a classic case of museum politics. Although I have to say, the circumstances Horner describes behind his marriage to a then 19-year old student are disturbing. I have zero objection to people with major age differences getting married out of genuine love (my father is a decade older than my mother and my wife's uncle and aunt are 58 and 33 respectively), but getting married just to spite administration?

[Dinoguy2]

http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/education/famed-paleontologist-horner-says-he-was-pushed-out-of-museum/article_f096c719-bb02-568c-91b5-97a19703464b.html

Sounds like a classic case of museum politics. Although I have to say, the circumstances Horner describes behind his marriage to a then 19-year old student are disturbing. I have zero objection to people with major age differences getting married out of genuine love (my father is a decade older than my mother and my wife's uncle and aunt are 58 and 33 respectively), but getting married just to spite administration?

I'm not sure it was to "spite" administration, but rather to prevent them from conducting an investigation into their relationship. I remember comments from her posted on FB at the time that were a bit vague then but would make sense if that were the case. I guess Horner offered to marry her to protect her from investigation/possible ramifications at the university...? They got divorced as soon as it blew over and she apparently had a boyfriend the whole time. So the marriage was for legal protection.

But yeah, still doesn't make his side of the story seem all that noble.

[SBell]

These sorts of things are not entirely unusual--I know of more than one 'elder-statesmen' paleontologist that, as pressures change, become very (often publicly) bitter and angry about any and all perceived slights. They start to feel pushed out or disrespected, plus of course the science and current zeitgeist may start moving in directions that aren't familiar or appreciated.

And on the flip side, many administrations, as they grow, bring in people that are more interested in moving forward or current models than worrying about the "old guys", regardless of their prior work.

So conflict happens. And, in general, the ones who control the money tend to win eventually.

It gets really complicated. And going public like this, regardless of who is right or wrong, isn't going to help him in the long run. Especially when his former employer's administration appears to be backing each other up so strongly.

[pylraster]

Never was a fan of Horner, but I hope he'll be alright.

[DinoLord]

Hm, so there's more to the whole marriage story. Still not very clear on went on, but at least it wasn't just simply a relationship with gross age mismatch.

[Stuckasaurus (Dino Dad Reviews)]

I was originally sad to hear about Horner's retirement, but now I'm thinking maybe it was about time he made room for the next generation anyway. I certainly thought at least a little less of him after giving his OK to Jurassic World's dinosaurs. I'm not even talking about the naked raptors, we were never going to get that, but all the creatures that were mostly correct in previous JP films (like the Stegosaurus) going even more retro for this last one. I don't see any reason why they would have fought him had he corrected them on little things like that. I can't believe he did anything more than rubber stamp the production. And played with some toys in those promo videos he did.

[ltokuda]

I was originally sad to hear about Horner's retirement, but now I'm thinking maybe it was about time he made room for the next generation anyway. I certainly thought at least a little less of him after giving his OK to Jurassic World's dinosaurs. I'm not even talking about the naked raptors, we were never going to get that, but all the creatures that were mostly correct in previous JP films (like the Stegosaurus) going even more retro for this last one. I don't see any reason why they would have fought him had he corrected them on little things like that. I can't believe he did anything more than rubber stamp the production. And played with some toys in those promo videos he did.

The Los Angeles Natural History Museum had a "Dino Fest" last weekend and Jack Horner was there to give a 1 hour live interview.  One of the questions he was asked was about what his role was as a consultant for the JP movies.  He made it very clear that he had absolutely no say on what the dinosaurs looked like.  Basically, his job was to be there to answer Steven Spielberg's questions.  Spielberg's goal wasn't to make perfectly accurate dinosaurs.  His goal was to make the dinosaurs accurate enough so that he wouldn't get hate mail from millions of elementary school kids.  Horner seemed a bit frustrated about this and said that virtually every time he got into an argument over some detail, he lost the argument.  In some cases, changes were made to the dinosaurs without Horner even being notified.  Horner didn't rubber stamp anything or give the "OK" to anything. He didn't have that kind of authority.  In the end, Spielberg just did whatever he thought was best for the movie.

[BlueKrono]

Such a shame, after all his contributions to the field of paleontology. But as SBell said, it's usually the money that wins in the end.

[suspsy]

I recall reading another interview last year though where Horner openly mocked other palaeontologists who were taking issue with the inaccuracies in JW, saying that he "laughed at them." Whether he said of his own volition or Universal leaned on him, it was poor taste.

[BlueKrono]

It's hard to know how to take that out of context. Perhaps he was laughing at the fact that they thought he had any real control over how accurate the movie dinos ended up being. He was just a consult, right, and Spielberg had the final say in everything?

[Takama]

At this rate WHY DO STUDIOS EVEN BOTHER. to hire consultants if there models are not going to make him happy anyways?

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

[Tony92]

I remember an interview of him giving a sort of endorsment regarding the design of the animals in the original movie, now it sounds pretty lame to say that everything depended on Spielberg. I believe that they'll do better openly saying that JP creatures are outdated and wrong depictions of dinosaurs, and they kept the same design for JW only for coherence. And everything about the franchise belongs to the realm of science fiction. Maybe this way people would stop lamenting the inaccuracy of Jurassic Park dinosaurs and we all could enjoy it for what it is, a sci-fi story.

[ltokuda]

At this rate WHY DO STUDIOS EVEN BOTHER. to hire consultants if there models are not going to make him happy anyways?

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

Horner said that Spielberg wanted to make sure that the dinosaurs in JP were accurate enough so that thousands of elementary school kids wouldn't send him hate mail.  In that respect, I think the movies succeeded.  Even with all the inaccuracies, the JP dinosaurs hold up well to general public perception.

You're probably right about the marketing angle.  Before the first JP came out, I remember seeing news reports about Horner being a consultant for the movie.  It definitely gave me the impression that we were going to see accurate depictions of dinosaurs.

[MLMjp]

I remember an interview of him giving a sort of endorsment regarding the design of the animals in the original movie, now it sounds pretty lame to say that everything depended on Spielberg. I believe that they'll do better openly saying that JP creatures are outdated and wrong depictions of dinosaurs, and they kept the same design for JW only for coherence. And everything about the franchise belongs to the realm of science fiction. Maybe this way people would stop lamenting the inaccuracy of Jurassic Park dinosaurs and we all could enjoy it for what it is, a sci-fi story.

They did it, in the film Dr.Wu explains why the dinos in JP/JW are inaccurate, sadly I do not think a lot of people are going to care about that part of the film....

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

When has Rebor claimed that they work with the Natural History Museum in London?

[Takama]

I remember an interview of him giving a sort of endorsment regarding the design of the animals in the original movie, now it sounds pretty lame to say that everything depended on Spielberg. I believe that they'll do better openly saying that JP creatures are outdated and wrong depictions of dinosaurs, and they kept the same design for JW only for coherence. And everything about the franchise belongs to the realm of science fiction. Maybe this way people would stop lamenting the inaccuracy of Jurassic Park dinosaurs and we all could enjoy it for what it is, a sci-fi story.

They did it, in the film Dr.Wu explains why the dinos in JP/JW are inaccurate, sadly I do not think a lot of people are going to care about that part of the film....

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

When has Rebor claimed that they work with the Natural History Museum in London?

They told me a long time ago that they had consultants from that museum.

[ltokuda]

Just to clarify: I didn't mean to suggest that Horner's advice was completely ignored by Spielberg.  Horner did have some influence on the way the dinosaurs looked.  However, if there was a disagreement, then Spielberg ultimately made the decision.

One detail that Horner did add to the first JP movie involed the scene where the raptors were hunting the humans inside the main building.  One of the raptors breaths on a glass window and the window fogs up.  That was Horners suggestion.  He wanted to promote the idea that the raptors were warm blooded.  I'm not sure what the scientific concensus was at the time (of if there was one), but for the general public, I think that was a pretty revolutionary idea.  That little detail seemed to have aged very well with time.
 

[Derek.McManus]

Most 70 year old would be happy to retire!

[Silvanusaurus]

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

When has Rebor claimed that they work with the Natural History Museum in London?

They told me a long time ago that they had consultants from that museum.
[/quote]

Off Topic, but it's no wonder Rebor can't produce an authentic looking dinosaur if that is true; when I visited it around a year ago, the exhibits in the NHM London didn't seem to have been updated since the 90's when I was a child. There were still JP-esque raptors, info on T-rex stating that it was the largest carnivorous dinosaur to have existed, not much hint of any link between dinosaurs and birds at all, there was even a piece of text literally posing the question of whether dinosaurs were more akin to reptiles, mammals or birds. I was deeply shocked at how outdated it all was, especially for the UK's most high profile dinosaur museum. I couldn't tell if it was down to a dire lack of funding, or quite simply laziness.

[Dinoguy2]

At this rate WHY DO STUDIOS EVEN BOTHER. to hire consultants if there models are not going to make him happy anyways?

I assume that how Rebor works with the folks at the Natural History Museum in London. There not there to give advice on how to make a proper model, there just there for bragging rights for Rebor so it would seem like there models were made in accordance.

Tom Holtz and Darren Naish have both answered this in the past.

The consultants are idea generators, not accuracy checkers.

Movie writers know zero about dinosaurs. They don't have time to do research and that's not their job anyway. So they talk to experts to gather as many facts and cool trivia as possible as a place to *start* in the writing process. Writers take those ideas and run with them in whatever direction they like, accuracy is never even a consideration. Sometimes they keep the consultants on to help with publicity tours and marketing.

That's how it works for movies and I would assume toy companies are the same.

People forget the dinosaurs in JP1 were about as accurate as you could get for the late 80s. I'd even say JP was more accurate for 1993 than WWD was for 1999. A couple things they did on purpose for plot or marketing reasons (changing Deinonychus' name to something with a more marketable nickname built in, T. rex vision was a weakness necessary to have that scene without everyone dying). Venom/frill of Dilo was there to show how much we would be surprised by and what fossils can't show us - it was the All Yesterday's of its time!

Problems only came when they chose not to retcon any of the now-outdated science for the sequels.

[suspsy]

Off Topic, but it's no wonder Rebor can't produce an authentic looking dinosaur if that is true; when I visited it around a year ago, the exhibits in the NHM London didn't seem to have been updated since the 90's when I was a child. There were still JP-esque raptors, info on T-rex stating that it was the largest carnivorous dinosaur to have existed, not much hint of any link between dinosaurs and birds at all, there was even a piece of text literally posing the question of whether dinosaurs were more akin to reptiles, mammals or birds. I was deeply shocked at how outdated it all was, especially for the UK's most high profile dinosaur museum. I couldn't tell if it was down to a dire lack of funding, or quite simply laziness.

I imagine it's a lack of funding. Sadly, it costs money to modify mounted skeletons or even to replace a placard with new information. I definitely agree with you that the entire gallery is badly out of date. It's also a very lousy, cramped layout that prohibits lingering at any one exhibit for too long. I'd like to see it completely gutted and revamped.