Save the Grand Staircase National Monument!

[HD-man]

Quoting Earthjustice ( https://www.facebook.com/Earthjustice/videos/10158936221035301/ ):

Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument may hold the key to the disappearance of the dinosaurs, but Trump wants to trade these fossils for fossil fuel.

Take action to defend this scientific wonder: http://ejus.tc/2rSbLxZ

There's a video in the FB link. I originally shared this in "The Prehistoric Times Public Group | Facebook" ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/16791880228/permalink/10155556422755229/ ) & then figured I should share it here too.

[BlueKrono]

I worry for the future of this country. All of our national treasures being snatched up and frittered away by billionaires and ethically-challenged politicians... 

[Simon]

I am going to break, just this once, my self-imposed ban on commenting on anything vaguely political, to impart a short history lesson to you youngsters regarding Grand Escalante "National Monument".

A better example of the abuse of the Monument Act for political reasons is difficult to come up with.

Grand Escalante happens to be a repository of one of the largest US deposits of clean burning anthracite coal.  It was "locked up" by former President Clinton in the late 1990s, not for any "environmental reasons", but in order to pay off one of his largest decades-long political contributors, the Indonesian Riyadih family.

Why?  Well, with Grand Escalante "locked up", and unavailable to US mining industry, guess where the next best clean-burning anthracite coal deposits were for the US to buy from?  The Indonesian anthracite coal deposits, owned by (you guessed it) the Riyadih family.

One of the most corrupt "quid pro quo" abuses of the Monument Act, made by one of the most personally corrupt men to ever hold the office of President.  It is high time that this wrong was righted, and its fitting that the man righting this wrong also happens to be the only politician in this country (or probably any other at the moment), who cannot be bought at any price by anyone else's money.

That is the real background of the Grand Escalante Monument saga, and anyone who tells you that the creation of that monument was anything other than a corrupt and dirty political payoff is either lying to you, or is ignorant of history.

[BlueKrono]

Let's be real, you break it all the time, so I'm not surprised to be hearing from you. I don't know anything about the creation of the Act, but all I want to know is: are you actually okay with seeing this richly productive Cretaceous-era fossil trove destroyed?

[stargatedalek]

The scummy part was that no one was willing to protect it up until Clinton found a way to personally benefit from protecting it, not that it became protected. This area absolutely needs to be preserved, even if Clinton (probably) didn't do it for the right reasons that's better than sacrificing an important piece of the planets history in favour of a dead industry.

There are over twice as many jobs in America in solar power alone than there are in coal, the industry only matters because of its prevalence in swing states and the dated electoral college system unfairly prioritizing lower population regions.

[Simon]

Let's be real, you break it all the time, so I'm not surprised to be hearing from you. I don't know anything about the creation of the Act, but all I want to know is: are you actually okay with seeing this richly productive Cretaceous-era fossil trove destroyed?

First off, my occasionally pointing out when other members have strayed into political commentary doesn't count.      I try to point out when members are going in directions of discussion from which no good can come (ie engaging in offensive, often slanderous posts that by their nature invite a reply in kind.)  I think its important to stay on topic.

Having said that, the issue of the political abuse of the Monuments Act is a real one, and this particular monument has been associated with it for 20 years. The current president was elected promising to curb abuses of power by the Federal Government, and, to the surprise of detractors and even some supporters, actually seems intent on keeping his promises.

Secondly, I reject the premise that is assumed within your question about Grand Escalante.  I do not believe that using our natural resources wisely is incompatible with preserving our natural heritage.  It is a delicate balance that I believe can be achieved.  In this case and elsewhere.

[stargatedalek]

And what about the other monuments that are in danger? A lot of them are fragile ecosystems that wouldn't survive mining. These areas wouldn't be protected if there wasn't good reason for them to be.

[stoneage]

I am going to break, just this once, my self-imposed ban on commenting on anything vaguely political, to impart a short history lesson to you youngsters regarding Grand Escalante "National Monument".

A better example of the abuse of the Monument Act for political reasons is difficult to come up with.

Grand Escalante happens to be a repository of one of the largest US deposits of clean burning anthracite coal.  It was "locked up" by former President Clinton in the late 1990s, not for any "environmental reasons", but in order to pay off one of his largest decades-long political contributors, the Indonesian Riyadih family.

Why?  Well, with Grand Escalante "locked up", and unavailable to US mining industry, guess where the next best clean-burning anthracite coal deposits were for the US to buy from?  The Indonesian anthracite coal deposits, owned by (you guessed it) the Riyadih family.

One of the most corrupt "quid pro quo" abuses of the Monument Act, made by one of the most personally corrupt men to ever hold the office of President.  It is high time that this wrong was righted, and its fitting that the man righting this wrong also happens to be the only politician in this country (or probably any other at the moment), who cannot be bought at any price by anyone else's money.

That is the real background of the Grand Escalante Monument saga, and anyone who tells you that the creation of that monument was anything other than a corrupt and dirty political payoff is either lying to you, or is ignorant of history.

If Donald Trump can't be bought why did he accept $302,734 dollars from Murray Industries the largest coal mining company in the country?  This doesn't even take into account millions of dollars from other companies and donations from lobbyist.  Donald said," It's very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it."  There is no clean coal and there are so many better energy options.  I don't want to be drinking poison water like in Detroit, or let Dow use pesticides that can effect the brains of children.

[Neosodon]

As long as it's handled properly, hopefully there will be no damage to fossils. Gasosaurus was actually found by a company looking for gas. This is depressing news but optimistically we could end up with a new discovery.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/265638/distribution-of-coal-production-worldwide/
http://www.wow.com/wiki/Anthracite

My feelings are the posting further up is an intentional political troll that violates forum policy.
Noone wishes to be trolled with unsubstantiated or unverifiable theories of political intrigue.
Verifiable -Indonesia ranks 5th in world coal production and has no known deposits of anthracite coal......
Russia produces 46 percent of coal used worldwide, and is the leader .
China produces more anthracite coal than anyone else worldwide.
What the US does or not do with undeveloped deposits of anthracite coal has nothing to do with monument statues, or any clandestine political theory

[Simon]

Since I am apparently being accused of purposely spreading factual inaccuracies above, (by a poster whose posts I have blocked from my feed for a few years now), I forward the following link from about 20 years ago for his enlightenment:

http://www.laissez-fairerepublic.com/indocoal.htm

I have nothing more to add to what I typed upthread. 

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I took a bit of time to examine the link provided ....a document from the site named in the link provided. Everyone should take the time to remove the last part of the provided link.... This is the source of the document provided. Makes it clear why we were only given a link to the document itself .


http://www.laissez-fairerepublic.com



   As you can clearly see, its an ultra right wing, hack site dedicated to trashing liberals, and their actions. Again as I stated previously, this is an obvious political troll, and has no place within the forum at ALL. You can remove the last part of the link provided, visit the site yourself and see the origin of the information being provided here.
   Obviously something isn't adding....however as you read the piece, note the lack of accreditation, the lack of citations, or direct quotes, the obvious lack of supportive experts, writings or data to confirm any of it. As you read, make note of all the uses of terms like..."About, maybe, perhaps, could be, or possibly" . It is an attack by implication and nothing more than an op-ed being represented as factual information to the forum.
hence no supporting links, no experts being quoted, and nothing substantive as any form of evidence.
   I provided links that clearly demonstrated the mining outputs for all concerned countries, types of coal and fossil fuels, and their ranking nationally. The evidence clearly demonstrates that this is not a factual story, and we are being trolled. This was a discussion regarding an attempt to defraud americans of protected national fossil treasures, by the current administration....that has somehow been allowed to degenerate into a flat earther style political trolling.
 

[DinoToyForum]

Don't discuss politics out of context, it is forbidden. Talk about the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument and how policies impact it.  Also, don't accuse people of trolling. Leave that to the moderators.

[BlueKrono]

Let's be real, you break it all the time, so I'm not surprised to be hearing from you. I don't know anything about the creation of the Act, but all I want to know is: are you actually okay with seeing this richly productive Cretaceous-era fossil trove destroyed?

First off, my occasionally pointing out when other members have strayed into political commentary doesn't count.      I try to point out when members are going in directions of discussion from which no good can come (ie engaging in offensive, often slanderous posts that by their nature invite a reply in kind.)  I think its important to stay on topic.

Having said that, the issue of the political abuse of the Monuments Act is a real one, and this particular monument has been associated with it for 20 years. The current president was elected promising to curb abuses of power by the Federal Government, and, to the surprise of detractors and even some supporters, actually seems intent on keeping his promises.

Secondly, I reject the premise that is assumed within your question about Grand Escalante.  I do not believe that using our natural resources wisely is incompatible with preserving our natural heritage.  It is a delicate balance that I believe can be achieved.  In this case and elsewhere.

If I could think of one example where that has occurred I would be inclined to concede your point. However, in every case that I know of, exploitation of natural resources for human financial gain has had only a negative impact on every aspect of the environment. If you think the two can coexist without tremendous harm then you must be a lot more optimistic than me. Mining in particular has many impacts that most people don't even think about. Besides the obvious effects like toxic runoff and erosion, mining can cause vibrations in the earth that put animals on edge, making them too skittish to initiate breeding behaviors and costing the yearly offspring for as long as it is going on. Fill that is brought in from elsewhere almost always contains invasive exotic earthworm species which then have devastating impacts on the flora and fauna of the region (for more information on this phenomenon check out http://www.greatlakeswormwatch.org/). There's just so much no one even thinks of...

Regardless of political corruption or lack thereof decades ago, the fact is that the Monument is protected now, and the current question before us is simply, "Is is worth preserving?". I think the OP probably thought that there might be some people here on the forum who opt for the affirmative. I certainly do.

[stargatedalek]

This is yet another completely disgusting attempt by this administration to attack environmental legislation and open up future loopholes for their corporate interests. These "national" monuments are "global" ecological heritage sites, they matter to more than America, and a lot more than just Donald Trumps bottom line.

What other dead industries is Donald Trump going to try and bring back next? Whaling? Sea turtle egg poaching? Or maybe passenger pigeon shooting? It'd be easier than saving coal by this point. Heck maybe he'll invent something new, like dredging up coral reefs! Think of the jobs that would make!

Just so my sarcasm is in proper context, these are some of the most malicious elected politicians to ever hold respectable office, and it's terrifying. As someone living in a neighboring country I still feel the effects when this administration slashes environmental legislation, when they pour funding into dying and destructive industries, when they spread hate speech, and when this "America first" policy goes after important natural heritage sites that are integral and irreplaceable parts of our planets history.

This is about more than "just fossils", this is about a large section of the planets natural history (both past and living) being systematically targeted and destroyed by politicians with documented ties to destructive industries.

[DinoToyForum]

Topic locked because while the topic at hand may be about "more than just fossils", this forum is not. 

[HD-man]

Quoting Csotonyi ( https://www.facebook.com/julius.csotonyi/posts/10154792176846396 ):

Save the Grand Staircase National Monument! Speak up against the current development of policies that would threaten irreplaceable natural areas, and also the research that depends on their integrity. The beautiful dinosaur artwork on this header is by one of the world's top paleoartists, Andrey Atuchin, whose work is featured in Steve White's newest book, "Dinosaur Art II: The Cutting Edge of Paleoart".

I originally shared this in "The Prehistoric Times Public Group | Facebook" ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/16791880228/permalink/10155997665695229/ ) & then figured I should share it here too.

[Ravonium]

OK then. I wonder how this will go again.


Update: Well, around an entire month after my original post, this has gained a bit of attention.

[HD-man]

Quoting Paleoaerie ( https://www.facebook.com/Paleoaerie/posts/839586216202210 ):

Trump is planning on at the very least reducing, if not eliminating, the Grand Staircase and Bears Ears national monuments in Utah so that they can be mined for coal. These monuments were created specifically to protect priceless and irreplaceable fossil sites from coal mining. One might say who cares about some fossils. But think of it this way. Coal mining had its place in US history and got us where we are today, but that time has passed. Coal is nothing but a hindrance and is damaging to us now. Increased coal mining will not create more jobs. It will only increase profits for the owners of a single coal company without really benefiting anyone else and will hurt all of us. The fossils and the land, on the other hand, are currently public property. They belong to all of us, so this act will destroy property you own and give you nothing back. The land will lose value as a recreational venue, another loss for you and all of us. We will lose invaluable information on our shared history. We will lose information on the history of the world and how it got the way it is today, which will hinder our ability to understand changes that are occurring now and will happen in the future. Trump is stealing from all of us to increase profits of a few. Does that sound fair to you? https://www.livescience.com/61059-trump-may-shrink-national-monuments.html

[Simon]

Quoting Paleoaerie ( https://www.facebook.com/Paleoaerie/posts/839586216202210 ):

Trump is planning on at the very least reducing, if not eliminating, the Grand Staircase and Bears Ears national monuments in Utah so that they can be mined for coal. These monuments were created specifically to protect priceless and irreplaceable fossil sites from coal mining. One might say who cares about some fossils. But think of it this way. Coal mining had its place in US history and got us where we are today, but that time has passed. Coal is nothing but a hindrance and is damaging to us now. Increased coal mining will not create more jobs. It will only increase profits for the owners of a single coal company without really benefiting anyone else and will hurt all of us. The fossils and the land, on the other hand, are currently public property. They belong to all of us, so this act will destroy property you own and give you nothing back. The land will lose value as a recreational venue, another loss for you and all of us. We will lose invaluable information on our shared history. We will lose information on the history of the world and how it got the way it is today, which will hinder our ability to understand changes that are occurring now and will happen in the future. Trump is stealing from all of us to increase profits of a few. Does that sound fair to you? https://www.livescience.com/61059-trump-may-shrink-national-monuments.html

POLITICS - AGAIN? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!