Best books for learning about dinosaur anatomy?

[Takama]

Ok, Here something more in line for the topic.



I have no clue if its too accurate or not.  But this book comes to my mind when i see the Threads title

[Gryphoceratops]

Excellent point, Helge. Bravo.



I didn't take Chris' 'mountains of books' comment to be a boast either, but understood it as he intended: a hyberbolic use of the phrase to illustrate that an abundance of books may not always compare to direct observation; in whatever form that constitutes.

I have to confess: I'm perplexed by how often Wings and Chris seem to have had your wires crossed, when your aims are often actually the same. I speak only from observation, but it seems as though you may have got off on the wrong foot early on, and it has since coloured all your exchanges. I'm surely not the only one to think so?

I do not presume to interfere, but it's just a terrible shame for rancour to exist when there needn't be one. Especially when the parties actually agree on the points that matter.

Thanks Niroot I'm glad you understood.   

Wings, if you have a response to Takama's comment, quote him in front of your response.  Yes, I read his comment but you quoted me so I responded as such. 

For the record the books that I have and use sometimes are Dinosauria (second edition) edited by David Weishampel, Peter Dodson and Halaszka Osmolska, The Complete Dinosaur by authors already mentioned, An Issue of the Anatomical Record from Sept 2009 by various authors includes lots of publications and The Princeton Field Guide by Greg Paul (mostly good for skeletal) for dinosaur references.  For Pterosaurs I usually go to Prehistoric Flying Reptiles by Peter Wellnhofer (a bit outdated with regards to azdarchids but the rest of them still stand okay for the most part) and for mammals I go to the Atlas of Animal Anatomy by W. Ellenburger.  Regardless, as I stated clearly before I personally happen to prefer(don't get this confused with me thinking other people's methods are wrong!) a more hands on approach in the form of dissection and live animal observation.  I am lucky to have had experiences with these through college and my job working at two zoos over the past decade or so.  But its also not something that is closed off to anyone who would like to try who hasn't ever done so before. 

"Different people takes different routes to learn and if the original author feels comfortable to start off with books then I don't see how this would done her any harm (she might decide to do a proper dissection one day... or maybe not...)."

I don't see any harm either!  I have no problem with different learning styles.  Whats wrong with me sharing mine as an artist to her for input?  Isn't that the point of a thread like this? 

I really think wings and I did get off on the wrong foot.  After the last fiasco about dino ears there was a number of personal messages exchanged between wings and I which I initiated as to not take the thread off topic.  In them I made a point to mention that I don't have anything personal against wings and I'd appreciate it if we ever do have differentiating opinions to keep it civil and polite.  I seem to be the only one exhibiting this though    

[wings]

I didn't take Chris' 'mountains of books' comment to be a boast either, but understood it as he intended: a hyberbolic use of the phrase to illustrate that an abundance of books may not always compare to direct observation; in whatever form that constitutes.

I have to confess: I'm perplexed by how often Wings and Chris seem to have had your wires crossed, when your aims are often actually the same. I speak only from observation, but it seems as though you may have got off on the wrong foot early on, and it has since coloured all your exchanges. I'm surely not the only one to think so?

I do not presume to interfere, but it's just a terrible shame for rancour to exist when there needn't be one. Especially when the parties actually agree on the points that matter.

I must have taken this comment differently because the way that I see it, what he was implying is that he has some relevant titles for the topic but in the end he just didn't list any of them (regardless how many books he actually has, it does still imply that he does have some at least). I just think that if you don't like to share your info then just be more considerate and don't mention that you have it at all. I can't say it for everyone but I do think some of the members would make the same assumption to the comment.  As to the problem of exchanging idea with Chris, I do get quite a number of emails from Chris through private message. (Chris thinks he's being civil and polite in these messages? I honestly can't tell...) Most of them are way worst than what you've (Niroot) read here (I am happy to email them to you and you'll see what I mean, but I'm sure you would have no interest of reading them). I've been replying to them out of politeness. In fact, out of all these private messages from Chris, none of these are initiate by myself (perhaps I was the one who is being targeted... ), personally I'm not into conflicts with others. But I'll say this, Chris, if you have a genuine question that you think I could address then feel free to email me but if it's for the sake of arguing (which is about 90% of the time) then from now on I won't reply to them. Firstly, I hate typing and secondly it's time consuming just so you would understand  .

As for Niroot, I don't like to force people to think one way or another if there is more than one solution available. But often in some of Chris's comments that is not the case and that is the only reason I commented on them. It does seen like we are targeting each others' comments, perhaps I find most of Chris's comments are often the worst offenders of this.

[tyrantqueen]

Wings, I'd just like to say I appreciate your contributions to this thread. I know that studying animals from life is important, but I thought I might as well seek out as many references and resources as I could. That's where the books come in.

And also, birds might be a good reference for theropod dinosaurs, but their anatomy is quite different compared to say, a diplodocus. They have beaks, wings and a keel bone. I'm pretty sure a bird moves differently than a diplodocus does when it walks.

[wings]

And also, birds might be a good reference for theropod dinosaurs, but their anatomy is quite different compared to say, a diplodocus. They have beaks, wings and a keel bone. I'm pretty sure a bird moves differently than a diplodocus does when it walks.

That is why I said perhaps use the bird reference for the hindquarter (since their hindquarters are quite alike but the only different is more or less in proportion) and as for the front quarter perhaps look at crocodiles (one of the living archosaurs) or something for musculature (These were in the earlier comments but perhaps you've missed them  ). Of course there are still differences between a bird and a quadruped dinosaur (like say a sauropod that lacks the trioseal canal as in birds so you wouldn't expect sauropods to have the chest muscles to loop around the shoulders as in birds), there are similarities between them too, you would probably need to combine info from other archosaurs whenever the situation is applicable. I am sure that you can't really expect to just look at a bird and be able to work through all the dinosaur groups, right  ? Muscle scars left on the fossils tend to be the deeper layered ones and the superficial ones normally don't leave much of a trace at all, often they are either ill defined or completely absent, and that is probably one of the main reason why we are still having a thread like this one right now. 

There are books like "Crocodile: inside out - a guide to the Crocodilians and their Functional Morphology" by Richardson, Webb and Manolis or "The gross anatomy of alligator sinensis fauvel" (but this one is in Chinese but the diagrams are quite self explanatory)  but I wasn't sure how readily available it is to you though. A slightly more technical one would be one called "Muscles of Vertebrates - comparative anatomy, evolution, homologies and development", get this one if you are really into musculature since the book is quite expensive... it has quite a number of dissection photos and diagrams on the head, neck, pectoral and forelimbs of fishes, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals however it is quite wordy as well and full of jargon so beware. As to movement of animals, perhaps you can get the Muybridge book "Animal in Motion" (the book contains b/w photos but it is good for analyzing how the weigh shifting during locomotion, like the hip tilts or the movement of the shoulder blades etc.). Often pictures on Muybridge's book don't show up too well maybe you would like to check out this site (http://www.rhinohouse.com/).

[rfdelgado]

I agree with Gryph, and my dinosaurs still suck.

No, they really don't. What is up with you constantly putting yourself down? Most of us are fans of your work. I realize many artists don't like their own work but you need to realize that you have a talent that many people would kill to have, you should be grateful for your gifts. 

I my high School art teacher said that an artist work is never done. And alot of artist have works that they are ashmed of but are highly received dispite his feelings

Yeah, I realize that (as I said) but there comes a point where even if you aren't completely pleased with your own work you should at least acknowledge that is doesn't suck, especially if you can make a living off of it. He may think his work sucks but I don't see a reason to remind us of that every time he shares a piece of his work that we're all drooling over. I don't see any of the other artists here doing it with that kind of frequency.

I like drawing dinosaurs but think many people do it better than I, and I enjoy drawing them until I see my own stuff in print, if that makes ANY sense whatsoever, lol.

[Gryphoceratops]

I agree with Gryph, and my dinosaurs still suck.

No, they really don't. What is up with you constantly putting yourself down? Most of us are fans of your work. I realize many artists don't like their own work but you need to realize that you have a talent that many people would kill to have, you should be grateful for your gifts. 

I my high School art teacher said that an artist work is never done. And alot of artist have works that they are ashmed of but are highly received dispite his feelings

Yeah, I realize that (as I said) but there comes a point where even if you aren't completely pleased with your own work you should at least acknowledge that is doesn't suck, especially if you can make a living off of it. He may think his work sucks but I don't see a reason to remind us of that every time he shares a piece of his work that we're all drooling over. I don't see any of the other artists here doing it with that kind of frequency.

I like drawing dinosaurs but think many people do it better than I, and I enjoy drawing them until I see my own stuff in print, if that makes ANY sense whatsoever, lol.

I think your art is great.  You are suffering from what I like to call "the artist's curse".  An artist is never completely satisfied with his/her own work. 

[rfdelgado]

I agree with Gryph, and my dinosaurs still suck.

No, they really don't. What is up with you constantly putting yourself down? Most of us are fans of your work. I realize many artists don't like their own work but you need to realize that you have a talent that many people would kill to have, you should be grateful for your gifts. 

I my high School art teacher said that an artist work is never done. And alot of artist have works that they are ashmed of but are highly received dispite his feelings

Yeah, I realize that (as I said) but there comes a point where even if you aren't completely pleased with your own work you should at least acknowledge that is doesn't suck, especially if you can make a living off of it. He may think his work sucks but I don't see a reason to remind us of that every time he shares a piece of his work that we're all drooling over. I don't see any of the other artists here doing it with that kind of frequency.

I like drawing dinosaurs but think many people do it better than I, and I enjoy drawing them until I see my own stuff in print, if that makes ANY sense whatsoever, lol.

I think your art is great.  You are suffering from what I like to call "the artist's curse".  An artist is never completely satisfied with his/her own work.

My artwork is neither great or satisfactory, but I do take pleasure in drawing them, if I may risk drawing Tyrantqueen's ire once more. I enjoy the actual story rather than the collection of images in Age of Reptiles. In the individual images, I only see mistakes.

If I may make a statement of dino-color philosophy, I prefer my stupid color schemes the match the dino relative to the scale of an existing animal today. I would not color a huge dino like...a parrot, but I would color it like a giraffe, because our eyes would buy it.

I don't think I'm making sense and I should just shut up.

[tyrantqueen]

My artwork is neither great or satisfactory, but I do take pleasure in drawing them, if I may risk drawing Tyrantqueen's ire once more. I enjoy the actual story rather than the collection of images in Age of Reptiles. In the individual images, I only see mistakes.

If I may make a statement of dino-color philosophy, I prefer my stupid color schemes the match the dino relative to the scale of an existing animal today. I would not color a huge dino like...a parrot, but I would color it like a giraffe, because our eyes would buy it.

I don't think I'm making sense and I should just shut up.

I'm not mad at you (sorry if I came off that way), I just think you shouldn't put yourself down when there are many people who would kill for talent that you have. Some of us practice for years on end, and our art still stays mediocre....

And btw, just to prove my point earlier...


I do like your art enough to buy it

[rfdelgado]

Uggggghhhhh! *yuck*


Tyrantqueen, I'm starting to question your taste!

That's a perfect example. The image is a mediocre excursion into art, but the image for me symbolized my family when I drew and colored it, so I enjoy it on that level.

Ugh.

[tyrantqueen]

Ummm...you're welcome.

For the most part I can't tell when someone is being sarcastic or not (I'm autistic). I'm going to guess you're doing it here?

[rfdelgado]

Ummm...you're welcome.

For the most part I can't tell when someone is being sarcastic or not (I'm autistic). I'm going to guess you're doing it here?

 

[HD-man]

Hi,
I have been considering trying out sculpting my own dinosaurs for fun. I understand that to sculpt a living animal convincingly I need to understand its anatomy fairly well. Are there any good references, like books for example, that I can use to help with this? Particularly muscle restorations, as these help me to understand what the musculature looks like underneath the skin

I have Gregory S Paul's book, which has a few muscle restorations but is mostly bone Should I look at references of bird anatomy, or just general animals?

Thanks

I recommend reading Chapter 3 of Naish/Barrett's Dinosaurs: How They Lived and Evolved (which I reviewed: http://blogevolved.blogspot.com/2017/09/my-20th-pair-of-reviews.html ).

[tYRantOsAur]

I actually recommend the whole book.
Plus I recommend some courses.
https://www.coursea.org/learn/dino101
and Dinosaur Ecosystems plus another one.
https://www.edx.org/course/dinosaur-ecosystems-kong-long-de-sheng-hkux-dinox
https://www.coursea.org/learn/theropods-birds

[tYRantOsAur]

I have some books. They are The Rise And Fall of The Dinosaurs, Why Dinosaurs Matter, and Giants of the Lost World.

[tYRantOsAur]

Plus I recommend reading some very technical dinosaur books. Just search the internet and find whatever you would like to buy.