Dinotoyforum's art

[Gryphoceratops]

Very cool!

[wings]

And here's the happy couple.  I've trimmed the T. rex neck to match the Triceratops

Looking at these animals reminds me of this article http://www.nature.com/news/how-to-eat-a-triceratops-1.11650, just the subject matter of course. Also, I wonder if you should be able to see the ear opening on the T. rex at this angle?

[Gryphoceratops]

Haha my friend sent me that article yesterday.  As much as it pains me to read about my favorite dinosaur getting its head ripped off I still found it very interesting! 

About the ear, I suppose it all depends on how big or small the opening is.  I know some modern reptiles (that aren't snakes) have ear openings that are practically invisible at certain angles. 

[wings]

About the ear, I suppose it all depends on how big or small the opening is.  I know some modern reptiles (that aren't snakes) have ear openings that are practically invisible at certain angles.

Could you point me to some examples? Since I don't really have seen one that is not "too visible".

I had a quick look around, it seems like most earless or reptiles with reduced ear openings are mainly burrowing or semi-burrowing types (http://www.anapsid.org/reptilehearing.html). It appears this feature prevent or reduce dust and sand getting into their ears. However, on this paper (http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-witmer/Downloads/2009_Witmer_&_Ridgely_tyrannosaur_brains_&_ears.pdf) by WITMER and RIDGELY, its tyrannosaur description states "...Their cochleae were elongate, suggesting that the reception of air-borne sounds was important, and the length of the cochlea and the extensive pneumatic chambers further suggests that low-frequency sounds were emphasized. Low frequencies are transmitted with relatively little attenuation over long distances and through dense or closed habitats (Garstang, 2004), and thus enhanced low-frequency hearing could have been important for tracking prey movements...". If that is true then it would not make sense for their ears to be reduced, since it quite the opposite of what has been said about the "earless or ears reduced" animals which have limited hearing. I highly doubt that tyrannosaurs are burrowers so it is likely they have decent sized ear openings. In the angle of the portrait I just don't see how the opening depression would have been obstructed by any skull elements (http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/files/2012/06/tyrannosaur-skulls-large.jpg, http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/wp-content/blogs.dir/471/files/2012/04/i-9af7c06b15f2d80e56406540aa3ce143-Tyrannosaurus_some_skull_musculature_Molnar_19-5-2009.jpg and http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/493/cache/tyrannosaurus-rex-bite-power_49360_600x450.jpg), unless it was covered by scales but this feature seems to be related to burrowing animals (reptiles) and other reptiles and birds appear to have quite a definitive opening on the side. Perhaps it is directed backward but ever so you would probably still be able to visualize the slit on the side of the skull.

[DinoToyForum]

Gryph, if you do, then create a 'reptile ears' thread. That would be both interesting and a handy reference. 

[Gryphoceratops]

The particular lizard I had in mind is one I work with called a monkey tail skink/prehensile tail skink/solomon island skink or Corucia zebrata.  Its close relatives burrow but not itself (not sure if that has any weight to it).  If you look at different pictures of it the ear opening can be in all degrees of visibility depending on the animal's head position.

I don't really plan on this turning into an off topic thing and would rather not make a new thread just about lizard ears.  More back on topic I just imagined your rex's ear behind the jawline and thus, being pretty much hidden since the head is slightly turned towards the viewer.  More loose soft tissue could wrinkle up obscuring the ear opening especially if its a vertical slit shape when the head is turned like it is. 

[wings]

I don't really plan on this turning into an off topic thing and would rather not make a new thread just about lizard ears.  More back on topic I just imagined your rex's ear behind the jawline and thus, being pretty much hidden since the head is slightly turned towards the viewer.  More loose soft tissue could wrinkle up obscuring the ear opening especially if its a vertical slit shape when the head is turned like it is.

However, the only way to go behind the jaw line (in this drawing) is to have the opening running behind the jaw opening muscle (m. depressor mandibulae) which is an impossible structural arrangement. Unless the outline of the head in this picture represents the outline of the back of the actual skull (like the squamosal and the quadratojugal, which is probably not the artist intention for this illustration because that would be the wrong shape for these elements) which implies these elements blocking the view of the opening otherwise I just don't see how you cannot see it at this particular angle. In addition, the animal depicted in this picture is not a particular "wrinkly" one, I honestly don't see any really deep skin folds on this animal (the only proper wrinkles that I see are along the throat area). Due to the shape of the skull (almost box-shaped at the back rather than a wedge-shaped skull where the skull width tapers toward the back and the wider area blocking the view of the narrower area at the back of the skull. please compare http://h2vp.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/tyrannosaurus-brain-endocast-still.html, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Corucia_zebrata_at_the_Columbus_Zoo-2011_07_11_IMG_0674.JPG and http://dot.free.fr/img/img170.jpg, where the ear slit was blocked by the width of the skull in the Corucia zebrata since it has a wedge-shaped skull area, the back of T. rex's skull is quite uniformal in width, I was mainly focusing on the top views of the skull) and the not so wrinkly skin on this portrait (lumps and bumps yes but wrinkly no) I highly doubt that the slit would be really "hidden" at this angle.

[Gryphoceratops]

Wedge shape head or not when the skink angles its head towards the viewer the ear opening is forced closed and becomes difficult to make out visually. 

http://www.thegardensofeden.org/monkeytail/h297C727F#h297c727f

[wings]

Wedge shape head or not when the skink angles its head towards the viewer the ear opening is forced closed and becomes difficult to make out visually. 

http://www.thegardensofeden.org/monkeytail/h297C727F#h297c727f

But the head of the animal on dinotoyforum's picture didn't go to that kind of angle yet. As shown in your link above the head of the T. rex depicted has roughly the same angle as in picture 4 (maybe 5 also) of the animal on your link (wrong tilt of course but similar angle to the viewer). I can certainly see a definitive "line" for the slit (the change in concavity of the form from the light source, the way the angle of the scales changes, and for your lizard the different sized scales) it is from an animal which has a wedge shaped skull as well (suppose to obscure the slit more...). In order for your idea to work the head has to rotate to more extreme angle than the present.

[Gryphoceratops]

"I can certainly see a definitive "line" for the slit"

Of course you can.  Its the main focal point of this conversation and is naturally going to be the first thing you scan for upon laying eyes on any photo I throw at you.  Regardless, all we are able to do is look at photos given this situation.  I can honestly tell you that from working in person with them for as long as I have, i have seen them in all sorts of lighting and positions/angles and the ear will somewhat closeup and become very cryptic at times.  Maybe go to a zoo or a pet store and observe some for a while.  Its a totally different experience looking at a live model as oppose to photos. 

Whether or not Adam's illustration is intended to be the way it is, I don't think its a make-or-break thing that should be nitpicked as seriously as it has already.  Its still a very accurate restoration. 

[wings]

"I can certainly see a definitive "line" for the slit"

Of course you can.  Its the main focal point of this conversation and is naturally going to be the first thing you scan for upon laying eyes on any photo I throw at you.  Regardless, all we are able to do is look at photos given this situation.  I can honestly tell you that from working in person with them for as long as I have, i have seen them in all sorts of lighting and positions/angles and the ear will somewhat closeup and become very cryptic at times.  Maybe go to a zoo or a pet store and observe some for a while.  Its a totally different experience looking at a live model as oppose to photos. 

Whether or not Adam's illustration is intended to be the way it is, I don't think its a make-or-break thing that should be nitpicked as seriously as it has already.  Its still a very accurate restoration.

If the link that you've sent from your last post (Reply #87 on: October 29, 2012, 04:07:57 PM) isn't demonstrating your point of the "hidden" slit then what is the point of your post, am I suppose to not look for the slit?

We are still talking about Adam's (sorry, didn't know your name before) illustration right? My observation is based on his drawing and his subject matter which is the T. rex, I don't intent to dwell on a lizard which has a different shaped skull (you can talk about that all you like but I honestly don't know how this is relevant to the issue here) . All I'm saying is that under the current light condition in this drawing (not something in a different lighting or angle of the light source) and from the head tilt of Adam's animal we should be able to observe the slit (ear opening). I was under the impression the angle of the head is more like this (http://johnconway.co/images.medium/gorgosaurus-libratus.jpeg, where the ear slit still wouldn't be diminished from the viewer's point of view. John's one is more defined since the integument changes right behind the ear but you get the point). On the other hand what probably should have been ambiguous would be the separation line between the skull and the neck, but that would be for another time. "Nitpicking", I always thought this kind of art thread is about giving constructive critics, I don't see how discussing the form of the skull is an unimportant issue. I don't have a problem of seeing different art techniques or skill levels but I do care about the accuracy (the best we can do at the moment) of a restoration. Most of my comments on this (head shape and ear slit) is very much the background information to how I arrive at my reasoning, without this information that would just sound like personal bias. I think adding this kind of information actually enriches the discussion as long as they are relevant to the topic. I honestly didn't realize it sounds serious to others.

[Gryphoceratops]

"I don't intent to dwell on a lizard which has a different shaped skull (you can talk about that all you like but I honestly don't know how this is relevant to the issue here) ."

Because in life they both would have soft tissue around and over the ear which could (or in the case of the lizard does) close up depending on the angle of the skull and neck regardless of the skull shape.  You asked for an example and I gave it to you.  I am aware you care about accuracy as do many of us here including myself but you said your bit with your sources (which is appreciated don't get me wrong) and I said mine with mine based on my experiences.  Why dwell on it more?  Adam already finished his drawing and has heard both sides. 

[DinoToyForum]

Sorted! 

[wings]

Because in life they both would have soft tissue around and over the ear which could (or in the case of the lizard does) close up depending on the angle of the skull and neck regardless of the skull shape.  You asked for an example and I gave it to you.  I am aware you care about accuracy as do many of us here including myself but you said your bit with your sources (which is appreciated don't get me wrong) and I said mine with mine based on my experiences.  Why dwell on it more?  Adam already finished his drawing and has heard both sides.

The whole point is about his drawing, and to state that at different angles and you can get different results is just plain pointless since it is a 2D picture and not a 3D model...(that is why I rather not to dwell on the example of your lizard, soft tissue is one thing but in this example the supporting structure - the skull which provides the framework to house these musclatures would be a more of a determining factor, since reptiles don't have much facial tissue and this is also the case of Adam's animal here - not much skin folds either. Virtually the ear on this would be just a simple depression so what we would try to look for is whether there is anything overlapping this structure and would produce any relieves as an indication of such structure if at all). The fact of the matter is the skull shape does affect the outcome on this (from the reason that I've explained earlier) and in this case I can still see the indication of an ear slit from this particular angle and this is based on the observation from the tyrannosaur skull casts at work. Unfortunately your example is not much of an example if it doesn't reflect your claim referring to Adam's drawing ("...I just imagined your rex's ear behind the jawline and thus, being pretty much hidden since the head is slightly turned towards the viewer.  More loose soft tissue could wrinkle up obscuring the ear opening especially if its a vertical slit shape when the head is turned like it is...Wedge shape head or not when the skink angles its head towards the viewer the ear opening is forced closed and becomes difficult to make out visually." Again for the reason that I've outlined from my previous post). Adam finished his drawing that is fine, I don't mind whether he's going to change it or not. Maybe it is something to think about and can be addressed in the future.

@adam
Nicely done, it's much much better now...

[Himmapaan]

Sorted! 

http://www.plesiosauria.com/images/artwork/tyrannosaurus_head_ear.jpg

I've only just seen this, haha! How perfect for Halloween. 

[Gryphoceratops]

Because in life they both would have soft tissue around and over the ear which could (or in the case of the lizard does) close up depending on the angle of the skull and neck regardless of the skull shape.  You asked for an example and I gave it to you.  I am aware you care about accuracy as do many of us here including myself but you said your bit with your sources (which is appreciated don't get me wrong) and I said mine with mine based on my experiences.  Why dwell on it more?  Adam already finished his drawing and has heard both sides.

The whole point is about his drawing, and to state that at different angles and you can get different results is just plain pointless since it is a 2D picture and not a 3D model...(that is why I rather not to dwell on the example of your lizard, soft tissue is one thing but in this example the supporting structure - the skull which provides the framework to house these musclatures would be a more of a determining factor, since reptiles don't have much facial tissue and this is also the case of Adam's animal here - not much skin folds either. Virtually the ear on this would be just a simple depression so what we would try to look for is whether there is anything overlapping this structure and would produce any relieves as an indication of such structure if at all). The fact of the matter is the skull shape does affect the outcome on this (from the reason that I've explained earlier) and in this case I can still see the indication of an ear slit from this particular angle and this is based on the observation from the tyrannosaur skull casts at work. Unfortunately your example is not much of an example if it doesn't reflect your claim referring to Adam's drawing ("...I just imagined your rex's ear behind the jawline and thus, being pretty much hidden since the head is slightly turned towards the viewer.  More loose soft tissue could wrinkle up obscuring the ear opening especially if its a vertical slit shape when the head is turned like it is...Wedge shape head or not when the skink angles its head towards the viewer the ear opening is forced closed and becomes difficult to make out visually." Again for the reason that I've outlined from my previous post). Adam finished his drawing that is fine, I don't mind whether he's going to change it or not. Maybe it is something to think about and can be addressed in the future.

@adam
Nicely done, it's much much better now...

I wasn't contradicting myself.  I was throwing different options out there that could explain how the drawing looks the way it does since, after all, its already finished.  I have checked out all of your points but I still think you are being too narrow minded with this.  I suggest we leave it alone now.   

[stoneage]

   I don't understand why a Monkey Tail Skink is being used as an example for T-rex.  Shouldn't we use it's closest living relative the chicken.



Of course if Adam gave it a head full of feathers maybe it would solve the problem by obscuring the ear.

[Gryphoceratops]

  I don't understand why a Monkey Tail Skink is being used as an example for T-rex.  Shouldn't we use it's closest living relative the chicken.



Of course if Adam gave it a head full of feathers maybe it would solve the problem by obscuring the ear.

Birds are probably the best model to use when dealing with other theropods.  I was just using a lizard example to possibly explain the look of the drawing since in the drawing there are scales not feathers. 

[wings]

I wasn't contradicting myself.  I was throwing different options out there that could explain how the drawing looks the way it does since, after all, its already finished.  I have checked out all of your points but I still think you are being too narrow minded with this.  I suggest we leave it alone now.   

To sum up, I think it is probably easier to illustrate my point graphically (see http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1354/earsti.jpg). Not really being closed minded but I just don't think your logic would apply to Adam's T. rex drawing (see link above for explanation). This is very much what you said "...I just imagined your rex's ear behind the jawline (if you are referring the jaw line as the quadratojugal, then Adam's drawing has the wrong shape, see link on this post) and thus, being pretty much hidden since the head is slightly turned towards the viewer (also see link on this post, you should still be able to see the change of the form between the elements like the quadratojugal and the depressor muscle to indicate such structure).  More loose soft tissue could wrinkle up obscuring the ear opening especially if its a vertical slit shape when the head is turned like it is (at the location of where the depression probably should be, Adam has it quite smooth and due to this reason, I don't see this as a valid point either)". Rather than being closed minded I think it is more about making common sense.

[Gryphoceratops]

Your making "common sense" is starting to appear a little obsessive.