Rebor Scientifically Accurate Tyrannosaurus rex "Kiss” and “Tusk”

[Duck]

I have a question for you guys in the lipped camp.  Personally my preference from an aesthetic POV is the lipless look, a crocodile just looks more menacing than a monitor lizard even if both were the same size because the teeth look so cool.  But that's just me and it's got nothing to do with my question. 

From a technical angle, the PNSO Wilson T-rex has a lower jaw that literally appears to 'tuck' all the way inside the upper jaw, is that correct?  Watching the online videos from dinosdragons he talks about the chinese paleontologist/designer of wilson finding evidence that the lower teeth fit into some kind of sockets in the upper jaw.  This lipped wilson can't tuck those lower teeth into those sockets meaning he's walking around with his lips closed but his jaw partially open?  I just don't understand the mechanics of lipped if indeed that lower jaw is supposed to tuck up inside that upper jaw.  So by extension, is the lower jaw fitting into the upper jaw completely wrong as seen on the PNSO Wilson?   I refuse to buy the figure because of the skin, but I've wondered if that overbite is supposed to be there from a scientific POV and since you guys are very knowledgeable about this stuff I'd like to know how that would work on the actual animal.

I'm actually not sure. I think that probably is from a scientific POV because the community is very good at nit picking models, and I think they would've noticed that. But other than that, I'm not sure.

[CARN0TAURUS]

That lipped Wilson looks a million times better.

The argument for lipped has something to do with keeping the teeth moist, is that correct?  I'm sorry to pick your brains like this, it's like 1st grader asking a high school senior about algebra.  But seriously, I love to know why lips are seen as necessary for the teeth longevity on animals that supposedly shed teeth like sharks.  Or has the teeth shedding deal been disavowed too?  I honestly don't know, just curious.

[Duck]

That lipped Wilson looks a million times better.

The argument for lipped has something to do with keeping the teeth moist, is that correct?  I'm sorry to pick your brains like this, it's like 1st grader asking a high school senior about algebra.  But seriously, I love to know why lips are seen as necessary for the teeth longevity on animals that supposedly shed teeth like sharks.  Or has the teeth shedding deal been disavowed too?  I honestly don't know, just curious.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314090740_Tactile_Faced_Theropods

[Lynx]

REBOR have declared Kiss and Tusk to be done...

If REBOR commits to this project... we could easily be seeing Winter Wilson getting knocked out of the ring for the "most accurate figure"
Look very nice so far! Hopefully, it stays confirmed and we get to see it out in the market!

[Duck]

REBOR have declared Kiss and Tusk to be done...

If REBOR commits to this project... we could easily be seeing Winter Wilson getting knocked out of the ring for the "most accurate figure"
Look very nice so far! Hopefully, it stays confirmed and we get to see it out in the market!

I sill consider the Battat Tyrannosaurus to be the most accurate, but I see where you are getting at.

[Lynx]

Update: Read the earlier conversation, and I am even more excited! Amazing job REBOR, can't wait to see the final product.

I personally don't mind the 'over-texture', I just like how beautiful the model is as a whole. I will be buying this guy the second it hopefully releases, and although the tail looks a bit static, that's getting nitpicky. 

[Duck]

I hope the colors are good

[CARN0TAURUS]

REBOR have declared Kiss and Tusk to be done...

If REBOR commits to this project... we could easily be seeing Winter Wilson getting knocked out of the ring for the "most accurate figure"
Look very nice so far! Hopefully, it stays confirmed and we get to see it out in the market!

The only thing that would deter me from buying it would be size.  Hopefully they don't release it in a massive crimson king type size.  If rebor is reading this, I'll pay the same big price for a smaller size one, I don't care.  Make a smaller size for those of us that prefer manageable sized figures.  I really love the 1/35 scale stuff, it's easier to store when rotating my figs and it's still plenty big enough to enjoy but logistically the big figures I used to love 15-20 years ago are just not very practical anymore.

[Lynx]

[/quote]
I sill consider the Battat Tyrannosaurus to be the most accurate, but I see where you are getting at.
[/quote]

Nearly forgot about that guy. It's a bit too small for my liking, and the paint jobs messy, but I too consider it to be currently the most accurate figure.
Now if only CollectA didn't stuff prey into their Rexes mouth...

[Duck]

Nearly forgot about that guy. It's a bit too small for my liking, and the paint jobs messy, but I too consider it to be currently the most accurate figure.
Now if only CollectA didn't stuff prey into their Rexes mouth...

[Lanthanotus]

Now that is how I picture T. rex, well fleshed out and massive. I just hope it will be well balanced and keep its weight on those two feet alone perpetually (and I hope for a somewhat drab/muted paint job, somewhat like the Blue Rhino Sue).

[stargatedalek]

REBOR have declared Kiss and Tusk to be done...

Spoiler

[close]

If REBOR commits to this project... we could easily be seeing Winter Wilson getting knocked out of the ring for the "most accurate figure"
Look very nice so far! Hopefully, it stays confirmed and we get to see it out in the market!

Winter Wilson never was, incorrect tooth size, no gums, no lips, oversized scales, no feathers*.

*Though reconstructions can still go either way there, having none at all is less likely than having some, and if the scales are going to be oversized, so should any small amounts of feathering.

BOTM currently holds it, and no way is this going to take that spot. It's a cool sculpt, and if it gets some nice paint apps I might consider getting it, but it suffers from most of the issues PNSO Wilson does.

I have a question for you guys in the lipped camp.  Personally my preference from an aesthetic POV is the lipless look, a crocodile just looks more menacing than a monitor lizard even if both were the same size because the teeth look so cool.  But that's just me and it's got nothing to do with my question. 

From a technical angle, the PNSO Wilson T-rex has a lower jaw that literally appears to 'tuck' all the way inside the upper jaw, is that correct?  Watching the online videos from dinosdragons he talks about the chinese paleontologist/designer of wilson finding evidence that the lower teeth fit into some kind of sockets in the upper jaw.  This lipped wilson can't tuck those lower teeth into those sockets meaning he's walking around with his lips closed but his jaw partially open?  I just don't understand the mechanics of lipped if indeed that lower jaw is supposed to tuck up inside that upper jaw.  So by extension, is the lower jaw fitting into the upper jaw completely wrong as seen on the PNSO Wilson?   I refuse to buy the figure because of the skin, but I've wondered if that overbite is supposed to be there from a scientific POV and since you guys are very knowledgeable about this stuff I'd like to know how that would work on the actual animal.

There is definitely no way it's supposed to have that much overbite. PNSO came to this conclusion based on getting several different things wrong, and then letting this influence their process.

The most straightforward being that the reference(s) they used had teeth that were too long. When many animals die the teeth slide out of the jaws and part of the root becomes visible, hence dinosaur skulls fossilize this way. If you look closely you can even see where the tooth starts out straight and then suddenly begins to curve, that's because that's the point where its supposed to emerge from the skull.

Part of the length of the teeth should have been covered, not by any sort of soft tissues, but by being up inside the skull, and instead they are depicted hanging loose. This isn't necessarily due to any unprofessionalism on PNSO's part, skeletal drawings often depict the fossils as they are, rather than accounting for things like this and depicting them as the animals skeleton would have been in life, then people copy those and copy and copy goes around. PNSO seems to be unaware of this, as almost none of their theropod reconstructions account for it, which then looks like further evidence towards their conclusion.

As an example, it's extremely noticeable on this Dilophosaurus skull:



The less obvious part is that animals jaws never actually sit on each other. It's easy to think that's the case since our teeth can touch (though it's actually bad for you to leave them sitting like that!), but that's actually pretty rare and usually found only in grazing animals. It's tempting to reconstruct the mouth closed in the way the skull fits together (again see Dilophosaurus above), but they shouldn't actually be able to do that. The muscles around the hinge/base of the jaw would be pinched and crushed.

The animals mouth isn't partially open, because the lips and gums meet and close everything shut. It's a bit hard to visualize because dinosaurs are so rarely reconstructed with their mouths closed, let alone as skeletals. I wasn't even able to find a good example of a theropod, but here is a CT scan of a tegu, showing how the jaw is held when the mouth is closed:

[suspsy]

One need only look to oneself to know that teeth don't meet when a mouth is shut.

[Duck]

Now that is how I picture T. rex, well fleshed out and massive. I just hope it will be well balanced and keep its weight on those two feet alone perpetually (and I hope for a somewhat drab/muted paint job, somewhat like the Blue Rhino Sue).

Exactly! Not a shrink wrapped iguana scaled 50 foot long murder lizard.

[CARN0TAURUS]

That lipped Wilson looks a million times better.

The argument for lipped has something to do with keeping the teeth moist, is that correct?  I'm sorry to pick your brains like this, it's like 1st grader asking a high school senior about algebra.  But seriously, I love to know why lips are seen as necessary for the teeth longevity on animals that supposedly shed teeth like sharks.  Or has the teeth shedding deal been disavowed too?  I honestly don't know, just curious.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314090740_Tactile_Faced_Theropods

I had to look up a few words to read thru that, LOL.  Unless I completely misunderstood, according to this article, theropod skulls lack the exterior bone texture and processes that are evident in lipped lizards their conclusion was that theropods would've had more of a crocodilian appearance and no lips?

I personally prefer the crocodilian look but considering that all we have at the moment are educated guesses and that very smart people will interpret evidence to support their own theories, I think it would be absurd for me to take a hard stance one way or another.  There is room for at least one lipped T-rex in my collection

[Bread]

Again, lips are debatable. I don't see why its still a for certain depiction on therapods when we have yet to receive 100% evidence. This can be said for both, no lips or lips.

[Skorpio V.]

I sill consider the Battat Tyrannosaurus to be the most accurate, but I see where you are getting at.

I did as well, it's certainly as wide as it should be but I think the gut isn't low enough and the arms too large. A nit-pick for the version 3/Terra sculpt is that the skull isn't broad enough. All things considered, that one's more akin to a Tarbo. Still do adore it, Greg and Dan were definitely ahead of their time and it's a testament. I'd have it over PNSO's for the fact that it's so sought-after and sentimental more than accurate.

[stargatedalek]

Again, lips are debatable. I don't see why its still a for certain depiction on therapods when we have yet to receive 100% evidence. This can be said for both, no lips or lips.

The thing is that even if the teeth were not covered, they would look nothing like what PNSO does for their theropods. The teeth still wouldn't rest on each other and the jaw would still be slightly agape rather than the lower jaw tucked into the upper, lest it injure itself by crushing its own muscles.

[Bread]

Again, lips are debatable. I don't see why its still a for certain depiction on therapods when we have yet to receive 100% evidence. This can be said for both, no lips or lips.

The thing is that even if the teeth were not covered, they would look nothing like what PNSO does for their theropods. The teeth still wouldn't rest on each other and the jaw would still be slightly agape rather than the lower jaw tucked into the upper, lest it injure itself by crushing its own muscles.

Oh I absolutely acknowledge that with PNSO models. Regardless, seems like everyone is still jumping on the lips wagon when it is still up for debate. Similar to how almost fully feathered Tyrannosaurus was widely accepted without further consideration until evidence was finally provided.

[GojiraGuy1954]

REBOR have declared Kiss and Tusk to be done...

If REBOR commits to this project... we could easily be seeing Winter Wilson getting knocked out of the ring for the "most accurate figure"
Look very nice so far! Hopefully, it stays confirmed and we get to see it out in the market!

I sill consider the Battat Tyrannosaurus to be the most accurate, but I see where you are getting at.

Battat rex doesnt has gastralia and has long lanky arms