Rebor: 1/11±1 Smilodon populator

[REBOR_STUDIO]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectables for fans?

Thank you

[suspsy]

Hold on. You used an animation model as a reference? Do you know what S. populator specimen it was based on if any? Do you know the animator even bothered to use any specimens for reference?

We mentioned that it was sculpted around a 3D scanned S.populator skeleton with recreated intervertebral discs and articular cartilages, not an animation model.

Okay, so once again I ask: do you know which specimen of Smilodon populator the skeleton was based on? It's a yes or no question.

[PumperKrickel]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectables for fans?

It's honestly embarassing behaviour. All of these attempts to create some sort of "gotcha-moment" with this brand representative are as rude as they are futile.

[Stegotyranno420]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectibles for fans?

Exactly. So what if it's a bit too oversized here or undersized there. In fact, even if it's very inaccurate(which its not, tho i think a tad bit too much fur and muscle was put but im fine with it), it's still a piece of art. And a very good and genuine one at that.

[GojiraGuy1954]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectibles for fans?

Exactly. So what if it's a bit too oversized here or undersized there. In fact, even if it's very inaccurate(which its not, tho i think a tad bit too much fur and muscle was put but im fine with it), it's still a piece of art. And a very good and genuine one at that.

Yeah. Even with its inaccuracies, Rebor's Smilodon is the best on the market. Papo's and Safari's are a close second and third

[The Prehistoric Traveler]

Hold on. You used an animation model as a reference? Do you know what S. populator specimen it was based on if any? Do you know the animator even bothered to use any specimens for reference?

I don't think he wants to answer that, you've asked him several times and he would've already told us which specimen they used. 

Rebor has produced produced some amazing pieces over the years but this is not one of them, yes the neck is too thick and short, the chest area/upper front limbs are way too muscular.  Why does he have to be bodybuilder sabertooth to be impressive?  From the side, the face looks strange because the nose sticks so far out it almost has a rat like appearance.  The canines are a tad long but are okay with me.  I don't like the depiction because it's the same old tired depiction with sabertooths, semi crouching, stalking, snarling.  It's like everyone will forever be forced to recreate the Charles R. Knight sabertooth in 3D.   

I think these companies try too hard to accentuate the differences between smilodon and modern large cats and they end up producing things that often don't look like cats anymore.  The definitive smilodon is yet to be produced.  I've been praying that Eofauna takes a swing at smilodon.  Minus the triceratops their sculpts tend to look more natural and lifelike because they don't overdo it.  One of my favorite illustrations of smilodon is in Mauricio Anton's book 'Sabertooth' on page 152.  It looks so natural and believable.

Smilodon was a very muscular animal though. Moreso than even modern tigers if i remember correctly

I think it's interesting that our friend from rebor posted a Mauricio Anton recreation of the musculature and with the fur but if you superimpose that image with rebor's own computer images for the musculature their sculpt the rebor reconstruction is clearly way more beefed up.  It's like the difference between a gymnast and a professional body builder.

I think it's a beautiful piece from an artistic point of view, but the person that compared this cat to those seen on classic works of fantasy was spot on.  This guy would be perfect with a saddle, body armor, and body builder type wielding a giant battle axe.  But for those of us that still want a scientifically accurate and believable smilodon in a natural pose doing cat things like resting, taking a kitty bath, or surveying the landscape in search of prey etc...  the wait continues...

So these tigers must be professional bodybuilders then? They all must be working at Arnold's gym. Now realize Smilodon was even more robust than these cats.

https://i.redd.it/3kmj93vz14551.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ec7bd7735d358ecfa1b913d77ac45c14

And this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djdth1XC5B4

[The Prehistoric Traveler]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectibles for fans?

Exactly. So what if it's a bit too oversized here or undersized there. In fact, even if it's very inaccurate(which its not, tho i think a tad bit too much fur and muscle was put but im fine with it), it's still a piece of art. And a very good and genuine one at that.

Yeah. Even with its inaccuracies, Rebor's Smilodon is the best on the market. Papo's and Safari's are a close second and third

There is still no hard proof of inaccuracies whatsoever. Just allot of claims based on nothing. Fact is, i provided evidence for the fangs, logical and visual evidence for the neck, and for the bulk. The head looks just about as small as several specimens without the fur. All the opponents could possibly claim is that it looks more like a hybrid between two Smilodon (sub)species but even for that i would like to see something convincing. It's a smilodon.

[CityRaptor]

To be fair, at least one variant is based on a fantasy scenario like the one @Carnotaurus mentioned:

[The Prehistoric Traveler]

To be fair, at least one variant is based on a fantasy scenario like the one @Carnotaurus mentioned:

The paintscheme, not the anatomy.

[suspsy]

There is still no hard proof of inaccuracies whatsoever. Just allot of claims based on nothing.

Except for those illustrations of Smilodon populator by Anton which clearly show a smaller head with smaller fangs attached to a longer neck. That includes the one that Rebor posted.

Fact is, i provided evidence for the fangs, logical and visual evidence for the neck, and for the bulk.

You only posted images of a different species with its mouth wide open. Can you find an S. populator specimen with fangs that project that far when the mouth is shut? I'd be honestly keen to see one.

The head looks just about as small as several specimens without the fur. All the opponents could possibly claim is that it looks more like a hybrid between two Smilodon (sub)species

When did anyone claim that?

It's a smilodon.

Well yeah, anyone can see that, but the fact remains that it still suffers from the same issues as every other Smilodon figure before it. I'd say it's ahead of the ones from CollectA and Papo.

Perhaps PNSO or Eofauna will be the one to truly hit it on the proverbial head—although I suspect the latter would be more likely to produce a lesser known sabretoothed cat like Barbourofelis or Homotherium or Machairodus. Which would be very cool.

[The Prehistoric Traveler]

There is still no hard proof of inaccuracies whatsoever. Just allot of claims based on nothing.

Except for those illustrations of Smilodon populator by Anton which clearly show a smaller head with smaller fangs attached to a longer neck. That includes the one that Rebor posted.

Fact is, i provided evidence for the fangs, logical and visual evidence for the neck, and for the bulk.

You only posted images of a different species with its mouth wide open. Can you find an S. populator specimen with fangs that project that far when the mouth is shut? I'd be honestly keen to see one.

The head looks just about as small as several specimens without the fur. All the opponents could possibly claim is that it looks more like a hybrid between two Smilodon (sub)species

When did anyone claim that?

It's a smilodon.

Well yeah, anyone can see that, but the fact remains that it still suffers from the same issues as every other Smilodon figure before it. I'd say it's ahead of the ones from CollectA and Papo.

Perhaps PNSO or Eofauna will be the one to truly hit it on the proverbial head—although I suspect the latter would be more likely to produce a lesser known sabretoothed cat like Barbourofelis or Homotherium or Machairodus. Which would be very cool.

Yes because one guys reconstruction is (always) evidence to debunk another reconstruction... His reconstruction is way to lean and the length of the fangs are clearly not normative in any way. I don't need to provide pictures with the mouth shut because anyone can see that the fangs are even longer than on the REBOR model, and unless you want to place huge jowels on the sides of the mouth the fangs are going to come out that far yes, quite logical, they don't retract into the upper part of the skull.... I can't believe i even have to elaborate on this. And if you want go on about what (sub)species this model actually represent (because i provided some examples from fatalis), i would be happy to go with 'hybrid' as a label but claiming this would need some further study.

No, no, no the fact doesn't remain that it sufferes from the same issues. Repeating something as a fact without providing anything to prove it doesn't make it a fact and that's a fact.

I'm done here.

[stargatedalek]

Look at that chart again, ocelots are their closest relative, so seems we were both wrong.

No? Ocelots aren't even included in this phylogeny, are you looking at the spotted linsang (Prionodon pardicolor)? Again, machirodontines and felines share a sister group relationship to each other within Felidae, so any one member from either group it equally closely related to all members of the other group.

I don't care much about this figure one way or the other but @EarthboundEiniosaurus is correct here. The closest thing to an ocelot in that cladogram they posted is the kodkod, which, along with all other living cats and some extinct ones not shown, is in the sister clade to the machairodonts. All living cats are therefore more closely related to each other than to Smilodon, and Smilodon is equally closely related to all living cats: ocelots, tigers, house cats, clouded leopards and lynxes alike. If I may toot my own horn a bit, I wrote an explainer on reading cladograms here: https://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3586.msg104482#msg104482

My bad, I thought kodkod were ocelots? Same genus, sorry for using the common name wrong. But this shows them as the most basal living cats which would place them as the closest relative to the sister group, no?

Not trying to get involved with the debate around proportions but just wanted to say that Smilodon and all other machairodontines are equally closely related to all extant cats, so no modern cat is more closely related to Smilodon than any other.

Look at that chart again, ocelots are their closest relative, so seems we were both wrong.

And looking at the skeleton and at the furless sculpt again, the neck is too short, and even accounting for the pose it looks like the hind legs are way too short, as the front legs are bent slightly too. The upper hindleg is also to short relative to the tail.

Not everything needs to be scientifically rigorous, there's nothing wrong with making stuff just to be cool, but I don't give Schleich a pass on claiming their toys are scientific and I'm not doing the same here either. If this was sculpted from a scanned specimen ya'll got scammed.

Fur and soft tissue can be quite deceiving sometimes, even the neck Mauricio Anton's own reconstruction looks much shorter than that of his muscle study works; and a head sculpt with open mouth and pulled back ears can indeed look larger in lateral view.

Spoiler

[close]

Oh I am well aware fur will make the neck look much shorter, hence I was only comparing the furless model.

Off how? It was sculpted around a 3D scanned S.populator skeleton with recreated intervertebral discs and articular cartilages.

So rather than comparing different specimens (along with an entirely different species from @The Prehistoric Traveler ), can't @REBOR_STUDIO just simply show which specimen / skeleton of S. populator they referenced and scanned so that we're all on the same page?

We borrowed it from an animator so no thank you, don't want to get into trouble

See, I want to go easier on you guys, I really do. When you make stuff in your element like the oddities line and those xenomorph Tyrannosaurs, it's absolutely awesome. But how are we not supposed to be critical when you go tauting "scanned from a real specimen" and then refuse to cite any sources whatsoever? It feels like you're mocking us who actually care about this stuff and it makes all of your other claims suspicious. 20 months for a team of people to do something a dedicated hobbyist can finish within weeks? Claims like that become hard pills to swallow when you refuse to cite sources when people have even minor gripes.

I'd like to remind everyone how exactly this blew into what it is. A few people mentioned some extremely minor gripes, and it was REBOR who jumped in, making claims about it being absolutely perfect because it's based on a scan of a real specimen, and then refusing to provide any information about what specimen.

[suspsy]

Yes because one guys reconstruction is (always) evidence to debunk another reconstruction... His reconstruction is way to lean and the length of the fangs are clearly not normative in any way.

@The Prehistoric Traveler, are you aware who Mauricio Anton is? He's widely considered to be the best paleoartist in the world when it comes to Cenozoic animals. He's been at it for decades and his artwork has been featured in dozens of books, museums, and paleontological papers. He's also written several books of his own including this one:

https://iupress.org/9780253010421/sabertooth/

So yeah, if one must choose between Anton's restoration of Smilodon populator and Rebor's, one would certainly be wise to choose the former.

And no, that S. fatalis' fangs are not longer than the Rebor one's, but I repeat myself.

Also, why do you keep writing "(sub)species" anyway? It's long been established that S. fatalis and S. populator are distinct species, as well as S. gracilis. Do you have evidence that shows otherwise?

[Bread]

@REBOR_STUDIO is this the only planned cenozoic prehistoric mammal you will be doing?

Also, off topic, PLEASE take a look at what some have been commenting about the Alligator's scales!

[REBOR_STUDIO]

@REBOR_STUDIO is this the only planned cenozoic prehistoric mammal you will be doing?

Also, off topic, PLEASE take a look at what some have been commenting about the Alligator's scales!

A dire wolf, a short-faced bear, a cave bear, a Gigantopithecus and a giant prehistoric grounded bat, that's about it. There won't be any herbivores which means you'll never see a woolly mammoth from us

It's been fixed:

[CityRaptor]

Since Gigantopithecus was most likely a herbivorre, too, you might have to cancel your plans for that one.

The paintscheme, not the anatomy.

I know.

[Shonisaurus]

@REBOR_STUDIO An arctodus simus? That's cool and a giganthophitecus? That would replace King Kong special version bought from bigbadtoystore. Keep going. You are doing it very well.

Cheer up to make prehistoric mammals and compete at the iToy paraceratherium. I would sacrifice abundant dollars / euros for that figure.

[Thialfi]

A dire wolf, a short-faced bear, a cave bear, a Gigantopithecus and a giant prehistoric grounded bat, that's about it. There won't be any herbivores which means you'll never seen a woolly mammoth from us

Hahahaha oh wow, I would absolutely buy all of those! One can dream I guess? 👀

[SenSx]

I just cant understand why some people on here are so dead set on bashing the shit out of Rebor. Surely there are more worthwhile ventures in life then to constantly slam a toy company for trying to make exciting and engaging collectables for fans?

It's honestly embarassing behaviour. All of these attempts to create some sort of "gotcha-moment" with this brand representative are as rude as they are futile.

I share the same feeling, if you don't like the product just don't buy it.

I however feel a bit concerned about the quality assurance, since I had more problems with Rebor than with other companies on that department...
I noticed one of the heads had a bent fang...we might have to cross our fingers once again not to get this issue on our models...

[Lynx]

@REBOR_STUDIO is this the only planned cenozoic prehistoric mammal you will be doing?

Also, off topic, PLEASE take a look at what some have been commenting about the Alligator's scales!

A dire wolf, a short-faced bear, a cave bear, a Gigantopithecus and a giant prehistoric grounded bat, that's about it. There won't be any herbivores which means you'll never see a woolly mammoth from us

It's been fixed:

Thank you for fixing the model! Hopefully, it'll earn a spot on my shelves in the future.