Warm blood/ cold blood

[tyrantqueen]

After careful consideration, I've decided ... to go with "raptors in the kitchen" from JP1. Really, everything from there up to the point where the rex does her big dramatic roar in the Visitors' Center.
I also enjoy the scene from TLW with the rex's Godzilla impersonation in San Diego - but it's quite poorly done, story-wise.

A "Gwangi" remake could be a lot of fun

I always wonder about that scene in the movie and how it might be considered if it is ever determined that dinosaurs were not warm blooded. Almost the entire scene is an underlining of the idea the dinosaurs in it were warm blooded. ( visual cues, like the window being frosted over with the raptors breathe, the way the raptors sniffed the room rather than using their tongues to scent as most reptiles would, etc)If it is ever demonstrated that is not accurate, like so much of the movie, it would become highly inaccurate. So much about the movie then would be considered laughable.(brachiosaurus sneezing, for instance)

There are people today who still believe dinosaurs were cold blooded...? I could understand that way of thinking for sauropods maybe, but there's no way anyone could believe that theropods were ectotherms.

Unless there are some recent discoveries/papers lately demonstrating otherwise that I've missed?

*is confused*

[amargasaurus cazaui]

You have given voice to precisely the problem actually. The issue is not as simple as either " Cold blooded" or "Warm Blooded" . There are many kinds of strategies for body heat, that would not necessarily require the dinosaurs to be true warm blooded animals in the most common sense.
  It is also entirely within possibility that dinosaurs employed a strategy for energy and body warmth far more primitive than either method we now consider as likely, and perhaps no longer present in our own ecosphere.
  I accept there are many arguments on both sides of the table for either metabolism strategy however, given the dinosaurs were descended from reptiles it is far more likely their own physiology was something closer to the reptiles although more advanced.
  Many of the smoking gun arguments given in the original run up to the common belief that dinosaurs are warm blooded have proven to be either insupportable or outright false. Ie, the fossil "heart" that was recently shown to be a simple concretion, the haversion lines in dinosaur bone originally stated as only possible in mammals etc.
It is not so much a concept of believing dinosaurs were "Cold blooded" as not subscribing to the idea they were true "Warm Bloods" as depicted in Jurassic park.

[Patrx]

An interesting point! Still, even if any of the Mesozoic dinosaurs turn out to have had a metabolic system like a non-avian reptile, Velociraptor/Deinonychus/Utahraptor is unlikely to be among them.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

 I do ascribe a very active lifestyle to the raptors that begs a higher metabolism then that of a simple cold blooded animal for certain. I could not agree more. I am just not sure wether that means it could catch colds, breathe mist, and even scent with its nose rather than its tongue............I felt in the movie they went way overboard trying to make them appear as warm blooded in characteristics, and my base point was simply to state how ridiculous that scene will appear if it is ever demonstrated the raptors employed anything except complete warm blooded physiology.
  I did like the way they portrayed the Compies if that helps, except they were far too small...lol

[Stegoraptor Rex]

 but your conversation greatly interests me! Oh and please remind me the pterosaurs were almost certainly endotherms right?

[tyrantqueen]

Oh, I see.

I read in Dougal Dixon's book, The Complete Book of Dinosaurs, where he stated his belief that what we consider today as cold and warm blooded are merely two extreme ends of one scale, and dinosaurs were possibly somewhere in between the two (with sauropods being closer to cold blooded, and theropods closer to warm, but neither being true ecto or endo therms in today's thinking)

Very interesting

[stoneage]

An interesting point! Still, even if any of the Mesozoic dinosaurs turn out to have had a metabolic system like a non-avian reptile, Velociraptor/Deinonychus/Utahraptor is unlikely to be among them.

None of the dinosaurs you mention above, had the metabolism of birds today.  http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-10/amon-wn100809.php

[CityRaptor]

Atleast not the Growth Rate, it seems. But then again, I think it works pretty well with this:
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2012/05/birds-have-juvenile-dinosaur-skulls/

I however think there is more to a high metabolism then a high growth rate.

[Gwangi]

What's up with the scenting with the tongue thing? That is not a trait of every reptile. Crocodiles don't flick their tongues, nor do turtles. You argue that since dinosaurs evolved from reptiles they would probably do this but mammals too evolved from reptiles in a manner of speaking. Crocodiles and birds don't scent with their tongue, why should we assume dinosaurs did? I'm not certain on this but I think scenting with the tongue is a characteristic of squamate reptiles (snakes and lizards) to which dinosaurs are not very closely related. In the book however (which I'm sure you've read) the dinosaurs did have forked and flicking tongues. They were originally supposed to in the movie too apparently.

Anyway, Jurassic Park is a product of its time. Considering its age I would say it holds up reasonably well but like any movie based on changing scientific notions it will be (and already is) obsolete. The lack of feathers made it virtually obsolete when it was made but more so after 1996. It will be no worse for wear in the future than the original King Kong or Valley of Gwangi are now...and those are still solid movies.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

What's up with the scenting with the tongue thing? That is not a trait of every reptile. Crocodiles don't flick their tongues, nor do turtles. You argue that since dinosaurs evolved from reptiles they would probably do this but mammals too evolved from reptiles in a manner of speaking. Crocodiles and birds don't scent with their tongue, why should we assume dinosaurs did? I'm not certain on this but I think scenting with the tongue is a characteristic of squamate reptiles (snakes and lizards) to which dinosaurs are not very closely related. In the book however (which I'm sure you've read) the dinosaurs did have forked and flicking tongues. They were originally supposed to in the movie too apparently.

Anyway, Jurassic Park is a product of its time. Considering its age I would say it holds up reasonably well but like any movie based on changing scientific notions it will be (and already is) obsolete. The lack of feathers made it virtually obsolete when it was made but more so after 1996. It will be no worse for wear in the future than the original King Kong or Valley of Gwangi are now...and those are still solid movies.

I believe you stated you have read the books written by Jack Horner, especially the one in which he advanced his reasons and ideas used in Jurassic Park. In his books he explains the thinking and ideas behind the kitchen scene. In it he stated that scenting with a tongue is NOT a warm blooded trait and therefore the raptors were made to behave more as a warm blooded animal might by SNIFFING. If you grasp this concept, then it matters little wether snakes, dinosaurs or lizards, or turtles would flick their tongue. What he is saying is no WARM blooded animal would do so...hence he altered the scene despite the book written to the contrary.
I myself am unsure if and what reptiles sniff and which scent the air through their nose, but I do not think, as Horner stated, that warm blooded animals do so.
This is precisely the point I was making about this and many other scenes from the movie, they are made to state positively that dinosaurs were warm blooded, when in fact this is generally an unknown and unproven. My comment was, should the dinosaurs ever be shown as less then true warm blooded animals the movie will look ridiculous, as it will. (Sneezing, breathing mist through their breathe, etc. )
  I also did not state "You argue that since dinosaurs evolved from reptiles they would probably do this but mammals too evolved from reptiles in a manner of speaking. " My comment was....."given the dinosaurs were descended from reptiles it is far more likely their own physiology was something closer to the reptiles although more advanced. "My implication is clear, I am stating that their basic physiology, their metabolism and actual method or strategy for living were perhaps more reptilian than a true warm blooded animal, and more closely linked to their reptilian ancestors.
  For these reasons to me at least , Jurassic Park was obsolete before it hit the theaters. I find more enjoyment and amusement from the old dinosaurs in "Valley of the Gwangi" because they were meant to entertain and did not attempt to take themselves so seriously. No paleo expert was paid millions to help film them...and yet the overall achievement was magic. To me the old dinosaur flicks do hold up far better, for that reason alone. I think thats just one mans choice is all, and something we should perhaps agree to disagree with. I do understand that Jurassic park was the movie of your childhood and so has a special place, and if it helps to place things better, that is how i see your avatar the Gwangi.
  And to the other side of the argument, there is always the chance the dinosaurs WERE actual true warm blooded animals and my entire point is moot. I do know when I spoke to Mike Everhart, a few years back, and he was speaking about monitor lizards and mosasaurs he described films he had watched of monitor lizards swimming in the water and how they chilled so rapildy there were rendered unable to swim, and he had concluded from that alone that mosasaurs had to be warm blooded.

[Gwangi]

I believe you stated you have read the books written by Jack Horner, especially the one in which he advanced his reasons and ideas used in Jurassic Park. In his books he explains the thinking and ideas behind the kitchen scene. In it he stated that scenting with a tongue is NOT a warm blooded trait and therefore the raptors were made to behave more as a warm blooded animal might by SNIFFING. If you grasp this concept, then it matters little wether snakes, dinosaurs or lizards, or turtles would flick their tongue. What he is saying is no WARM blooded animal would do so...hence he altered the scene despite the book written to the contrary.
I myself am unsure if and what reptiles sniff and which scent the air through their nose, but I do not think, as Horner stated, that warm blooded animals do so.

I understand what you're saying but I'm not concerned with Horner's reasoning for dispatching tongue flicking dinosaurs from the films. All I'm basically saying is that cold-blooded or not, dinosaurs probably did not scent this way. To sum it up, even if dinosaurs were found to be cold-blooded, the lack of tongue flicking would not make the film look any more or less ridiculous because it is not a required feature of cold-blooded animals.

For these reasons to me at least , Jurassic Park was obsolete before it hit the theaters. I find more enjoyment and amusement from the old dinosaurs in "Valley of the Gwangi" because they were meant to entertain and did not attempt to take themselves so seriously. No paleo expert was paid millions to help film them...and yet the overall achievement was magic. To me the old dinosaur flicks do hold up far better, for that reason alone. I think thats just one mans choice is all, and something we should perhaps agree to disagree with. I do understand that Jurassic park was the movie of your childhood and so has a special place, and if it helps to place things better, that is how i see your avatar the Gwangi.

I don't know, I just see it as a non-issue really. Most of the people who watch JP probably don't even notice the hints at warm blooded-ness that are so obvious to people like us. Most people still cling to the notion that they were cold-blooded despite the efforts of Jurassic Park. The only people who will laugh at JP should it be shown inaccurate are nerds such as ourselves who are already laughing at its naked Velociraptors and the other inaccuracies. Still, the film is 20 years old now and remains one of the most accurate dinosaur movies to date if only because they don't live in swamps and drag their tails. I too still enjoy the older dinosaur movies, movies I was watching before Jurassic Park was even released but even though they don't have the name of a paleontologist in their credits (though the dinosaurs themselves were inspired by paleo-artist Charles Knight) they still reflect the scientific notions of the time and like Jurassic Park is or someday will be are obsolete but no-less entertaining.