Beasts of the Mesozoic Accuracy Check

[Dinoguy2]

Now that David Silva's raptor line has been almost fully revealed on the Kickstarter page, and since I did this to illustrate my issues with the Zhenyuanlong proportions, AND since people were asking if similar accuracy problems might exist with the other figures, I went through and used Photoshop to check the proportions and accuracy of all the figures.

Please note! I'm not in any way attempting to bash this line. I am a backer of the project and think the sculpting and design makes these by far the best feathered dinosaur toys ever made. But there's always room for improvement, and personally, if I'm going to pay $50 a pop for these guys, my personal preference is to buy the ones that both look great AND match the fossil evidence.

Also note that some issues on here might be matters of perspective. Even in side view, these are 3D models after all, and simply overlaying the bones is a tricky proposition at best. Also, some issues might be intentional for articulation purposes. So here we go...

Velociraptor:
Proportions match Scott Hartman's skeletals exactly down to the millimeter. Feathers unknown but based on quill knob evidence, it should probably have bigger wings more like Zhenyuanlong, if not bigger (Zhen does not have quill knobs even though its wings are huge as you can see below). Verdict: Pretty much perfect, but could probably use bigger wings.



Atrociraptor:
This species is only known from a partial snout and jaw, so it's proportions are unknown. However, the figure differs from the restored skull in the paper by having a velociraptor-like kink in the snout. The skull restoration has an arched snout thanks to the tall maxilla which Atrociraptor is known for. Verdict: Close but probably inaccurate.



Tsaagan:
Tsaagan is only known from a skull and neck, so I based the proportions on Linheraptor, which is probably a junior synonym. Everything still lines up almost exactly. The lower jaw and feet are still a little robust, but this is a problem with all the figures and is probably necessary for articulation, being able to stand, etc. The only other issue was the ulna is a little too long (Linheraptor has a very tiny forearm, shorter than the humerus). I showed this minor correction below. Verdict: Good match for the source fossil.



Balaur:
Baler is actually pretty good based on what's known of its anatomy (I personally would have given it a more Archaeopteryx or Jeholornis like head to reflect its new status as a possible avialan, but that's obviously unknown at this time for sure). When I scale the skeletal to femur length, everything lines up nicely except the tibia, which is too short. I modified it below. The fact that the tibia and femur are the same length is what gave this animal its name "stocky dragon" so it's a shame this one minor thing is wrong. Verdict: Good overall, needs longer tibiae.



Adasaurus:
Adasaurus is tricky because much of the skeleton remains undescribed. I scaled a skull diagram with the pelvic bones figured in the paper. Looks good, except the pelvis of the figure is too narrow, there's no room for the hip bone above the leg. I tweaked this below. The distinctive small, uncurbed second toe claw is there as it should be, which is one of the main ways you can tell it's Adasaurus.
Verdict: Good as far as we can tell, but the hips are too narrow.


Zhenyuanlong:
I covered this in the other thread but figured I should re-post it here. Head too big, wing feathers too short, tibia too short.



Saurornitholestes:
Ok, this one is cheating Saurornithloestes is known from a series of scrappy remains that make proportions hard to figure out. Traditional skeletal mounts have been based on Velociraptor, and this figure lines up fairly well with those, though the snout is a little too Velociraptor-like even based on existing mounts. BUT, there is an unpublished mummy specimen that I used to check the figure (note it's unpublished, which is why I said it's cheating - there's no reasonable expectation Silva should have had to use this specimen as a reference). See also this specimen, which is probably a Saurornitholestes or close relative: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/76/5c/9c/765c9cac4b5d8c2f2e494c84094dc6f7.jpg
Below is a version tweaked to the proportions of the mummy with a smaller mummy photo inset. Verdict: The main changes are the skull shape and shorter forearms.



Dromaeosaurus:
Like Saurornitholestes, we have no good single skeletons of Dromaeosaurus, so the proportions are hard to nail down. This is based on Hartman's "best guess" skeletal http://img07.deviantart.net/7221/i/2015/150/e/2/best_guess_dromaeosaurus_by_scotthartman-d8v9ez4.jpg . Based on this, it looks like it has similar proportion problems to Zhenyuanlong. The tibiae is too short, the forearms are a little too long, and head is far too big compared to the body. Verdict: Inaccurate proportions comparable to Zhenyuanlong.



So, there you have it. I think Zhenyuanlong is still the worst offender. Dromaeosaurus is second, because it's more speculative without any good skeletons. Saurornitholestes is third least accurate thanks to info from undescribed specimens. Atrociraptor would probably be fourth since it seems to differ from the one bone it's known from. The others are all pretty good, though many have legs too short. I think Silva might have sculpted Velociraptor first and just used those legs for everything, even though velociraptorines have unusually short lower legs among dromaeosaurids.

I didn't include Linheraptor since no decent lateral prototype pics have been posted yet, but as long as the body matches Tsaagan it should be good. Pyroraptor and Acheroraptor are based on scrap so there's no way to check for accuracy on those.

[DinoLord]

Great analysis! Have you raised these concerns with David? While us forum members enjoy seeing them articulated I'm not sure how much good they're doing just being posted on here.

[Dinoguy2]

Great analysis! Have you raised these concerns with David? While us forum members enjoy seeing them articulated I'm not sure how much good they're doing just being posted on here.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to do this would be... I missed the KS deadline and had to order mine through Backerkit preorder so I can't post on the KS page. Maybe somebody who can can just post a link to this thread?

[Dobber]

Great analysis! Have you raised these concerns with David? While us forum members enjoy seeing them articulated I'm not sure how much good they're doing just being posted on here.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to do this would be... I missed the KS deadline and had to order mine through Backerkit preorder so I can't post on the KS page. Maybe somebody who can can just post a link to this thread?

Great analysis, I actually prefer all the changes that you made....particularly with Zhen. I would also submit that the snout of Zhen is also too long with that "crook" in it when, from the fossil it looks much shorter and more "triangular" similar to Dromaeosaurus.

My suggestion, maybe send him a PM on Facebook with these observations and comparisons and ask if it is too late to change some things....at least on Zhen as I *think* it may be more disappointing to others as it is the only one that hasn't been lavished with praise as most of the other figures have been. I suggest the PM so that way it won't look like we are publicly crapping on his product and not hurting any potential sales. Unless someone want's to just post a link here. It may be too late at this point though. Only one way to find out. I don't have a Facebook account and I didn't see an email on the KS page.

Chris

[Flaffy]

Great analysis! Have you raised these concerns with David? While us forum members enjoy seeing them articulated I'm not sure how much good they're doing just being posted on here.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to do this would be... I missed the KS deadline and had to order mine through Backerkit preorder so I can't post on the KS page. Maybe somebody who can can just post a link to this thread?

Great analysis, I actually prefer all the changes that you made....particularly with Zhen. I would also submit that the snout of Zhen is also too long with that "crook" in it when, from the fossil it looks much shorter and more "triangular" similar to Dromaeosaurus.

My suggestion, maybe send him a PM on Facebook with these observations and comparisons and ask if it is too late to change some things....at least on Zhen as I *think* it may be more disappointing to others as it is the only one that hasn't been lavished with praise as most of the other figures have been. I suggest the PM so that way it won't look like we are publicly crapping on his product and not hurting any potential sales. Unless someone want's to just post a link here. It may be too late at this point though. Only one way to find out. I don't have a Facebook account and I didn't see an email on the KS page.

Chris

David regularly checks and responds to comments on his facebook posts. So far, David responded to around 90% of my comments, he also replies to PM. I think he really needs to know about this, or we could send him a link to this thread via facebook PM.

[RobinGoodfellow]

...just a personal point of view: you are judging the proportions of three-dimensional figures not on naked eyes but through promotional pictures...
The right perspective is very important in technical photography.
If I were you, I wouldn't be so sure...

[Dinoguy2]

Great analysis! Have you raised these concerns with David? While us forum members enjoy seeing them articulated I'm not sure how much good they're doing just being posted on here.

I'm not quite sure what the best way to do this would be... I missed the KS deadline and had to order mine through Backerkit preorder so I can't post on the KS page. Maybe somebody who can can just post a link to this thread?

Great analysis, I actually prefer all the changes that you made....particularly with Zhen. I would also submit that the snout of Zhen is also too long with that "crook" in it when, from the fossil it looks much shorter and more "triangular" similar to Dromaeosaurus.

Actually, and I just went back to double check this, I think the shape of the Zhen head is correct. The triangular effect might be because the head is crushed and part of the other side is poking up behind the snout.

...just a personal point of view: you are judging the proportions of three-dimensional figures not on naked eyes but through promotional pictures...
The right perspective is very important in technical photography.
If I were you, I wouldn't be so sure...

That's true, which is why I tried to use the pics of each figure laying on its side, though there is possibly still some distortion. The only one that doesn't have a side pic is Dromaeosaurus, so that one in particular might be off. Notice that the head is too big and legs too small, which could be an illusion caused by perspective in the photo.

[empire3569]

Just to play devil's advocate here, and taking in account a lot of the things he has already said about this line, I highly doubt David would be willing to make changes this late in the game, especially changes that involved completely sculpting new parts (like new skull shapes, longer arm/leg bones, etc). He has stated many times that for this series he is trying to utilize as much parts sharing as he can while still being accurate. I get the whole "I want my figures to be accurate" thing, and I feel the same way, but these are by far the best, most detailed, most accurate dromaeosaur figures in their price range. I think we should all be happy that he is even producing these to begin with, as they fill such a major gap in the dinosaur figure market. I think RobinGoodfellows makes a good point about judging these 3D figures on 2D images. Just my 2cents

[RobinGoodfellow]

...I don't want to go too deep into the discussion because my point of view is quite different.
As a prehistoric figure collector, I'm not so interested in a 100% accuracy if a figure looks  very good.
The artistic look of a figure is more important to me than the total accuracy because I'm not a paleontologist nor a scientist but just a collector and an enthusiastic guy about animal figures.
I can understand that the total accuracy could be the most important thing for other people.
David Silva's line actually is the most accurate about raptors.
If a head is just a little bigger than the real fossil, that's not a big problem to me.
They look very good and are a great step ahead from any other line.
That's enough for me by now...
And (most important thing) I usually judge a figure having it in my hand and not by pictures.

P.S I'm not doing critics about this thread; I'm just speaking about my point of view (with full respect for other's point of view..)

[Flaffy]

But... but Zhen's head... It's just too big...  And the wings...
I'm ok with slight differences, like if the proportions are a little bigger or slightly smaller and stuff (like balaur's legs and adasaurus's hip bone). But if they are  very noticable (like zhenyuanong's head and wings), then I'm not okay with it and label it as inaccurate. I'm fine with artistic interpretations, as long as the features are possible in real life, even if they are speculative. I agree that this line is already very good in terms of quality and articulation, but we cannot forget that another major selling point for this line is for its scientific accuracy, so if some features of the figures are very obviously inaccurate, I get a little fussy about it.
Thats my point of view for the topic, I fully respect other points of views and is eager to hear them. 

[Sim]

I have some thoughts which I'll share in another post when I have time later.  For now, just two things:

1) Has anyone showed this thread to David?

2) David has made this Facebook post on changes he's making to the Zhenyuanlong!: https://www.facebook.com/113487525333128/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1426232987391902/?type=3&theater

[Flaffy]

Well since he's redoing the zhenyuanlong. I'm guessing some of our forum members talked to David   

[Sim]

Well since he's redoing the zhenyuanlong. I'm guessing some of our forum members talked to David   

Hehe!  I had similar thoughts.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I think the Dromeosaurus looks like a Deinonychus to me.

[Sim]

I think the Dromeosaurus looks like a Deinonychus to me.

Side view of the figure: https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13669480_1421897194492148_3429802775240458722_o.jpg

Dromaeosaurus skeletal: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Best-guess-Dromaeosaurus-536236816

Deinonychus skeletal: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Terrible-Claw-310579803

The figure's head definitely looks like that of Dromaeosaurus to me.  Deinonychus's head is longer and less deep with teeth that curve backwards strongly.

[Dobber]

Wow, amazing! Head is looking better now. I'm impressed at the speed in which he works. Also glad he takes the criticism in the spirit in which it was intended to help make the best figures possible.

Chris

[empire3569]

I stand corrected, congrats to all those who wanted changes to that figure! 

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I think the Dromeosaurus looks like a Deinonychus to me.

Side view of the figure: https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13669480_1421897194492148_3429802775240458722_o.jpg

Dromaeosaurus skeletal: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Best-guess-Dromaeosaurus-536236816

Deinonychus skeletal: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Terrible-Claw-310579803

The figure's head definitely looks like that of Dromaeosaurus to me.  Deinonychus's head is longer and less deep with teeth that curve backwards strongly.

Sorry I wasn't being technical, just stating that it looks that way to me with a cursory glance.  So many just look so similar.

[Nanuqsaurus]

David is awesome! I was afraid he might think that the commentary was rude, after all he works really hard on those figures. But he actually made the changes to Zhen, and it looks way better now! Great job David!

[Patrx]

David has said that least some of the models will be made into kits at some point in the future, yes? Maybe some of these changes can be implemented at that time? But, alas, they will be costly resin and not plastic.

Also, is it possible to replace one's pledge reward raptor (Velociraptor, Tsasgan, or Atrociraptor) for one of the newer ones? I'm sure someone's asked David before, but I can't find mention on the CreativeBeast Facebook page.