An experiment that turned reptiles scales into feathers??

[Seijun]

Spent my evening watching youtube videos about evolution. One of the videos I watched talked about feather evolution, and it was stated that experiments had been done on blocking proteins, and blocking a certain protein in birds caused scutes on their feet to develop as feathers. That I can believe, because birds already have feathers. The person speaking went on to say that a similar experiment was carried out on reptiles, causing their scales to develop as feathers! Unfortunately no scientific references are provided. I cant find anything online relating to this experiment except for a few posts also questioning whether or not it is true. It seems like that would be headline news, an experiment that can cause a reptile to be hatched or born with feathers instead of scales... Has anyone else heard of this before?

[Gryphoceratops]

Weird.  Did they specify what kind of reptile this was done on? 

[tyrantqueen]

Not sure if this is related or not, but is it true that crocodiles have a gene in their dna, that once "activated", causes them to grow feathers?
Sorry if it sounds like balderdash, but I heard it somewhere....

[Gwangi]

I've heard of growing feathers from bird scutes before but never feathers from reptiles. I too would think that would be pretty big news. Do you have a link for the documentary? I would be interested in seeing it.

[ZoPteryx]

I've heard of growing feathers from bird scutes before but never feathers from reptiles. I too would think that would be pretty big news. Do you have a link for the documentary? I would be interested in seeing it.

Same here.  And to my knowledge, giving a reptile like a croc feathers would be impossible as no living reptiles (other than birds) have had feathers in their evolutionary history and therefore there are no hox genes to reactivate.   Birds have had both feathers and scales in the past (and still do), so they still have the genes whether they're active or not.

[Patrx]

Not sure if this is related or not, but is it true that crocodiles have a gene in their dna, that once "activated", causes them to grow feathers?
Sorry if it sounds like balderdash, but I heard it somewhere....

I think I read that same thing once - something that presented filamentous integument  (feathers/pycnofibres) as a basal trait of all archosaurs; saying that crocodillians were unusual in that no modern taxa express the trait.

[Gwangi]

Not sure if this is related or not, but is it true that crocodiles have a gene in their dna, that once "activated", causes them to grow feathers?
Sorry if it sounds like balderdash, but I heard it somewhere....

I think I read that same thing once - something that presented filamentous integument  (feathers/pycnofibres) as a basal trait of all archosaurs; saying that crocodillians were unusual in that no modern taxa express the trait.

"Feathers, Scutes, and the Origin of Birds" by Jeff Poling

[Gryphoceratops]

Not sure if this is related or not, but is it true that crocodiles have a gene in their dna, that once "activated", causes them to grow feathers?
Sorry if it sounds like balderdash, but I heard it somewhere....

I remember reading that in a National Geographic from 2011(?)

[Arioch]

My knowledge about this is pretty casual, but bird scales seems to be substantially different than crocs or other reptiles since they seem to have evolved from feathers, so this seems to be a process to "revert" them. I don't know of any other reptile species sharing this kind of scales. In the case of crocodyliforms feathers or quills should have grown between scales, not from them.

[Patrx]

Indeed, that's the article I read! It's fascinating. Hmm - it makes me wonder something - and feel free to correct me if it's a stupid notion - but, is it possible that some prehistoric crocodilians possessed filamentous integument? Perhaps some terrestrial crocs, whose lifestyles differed completely from those of the modern variety?

[Gwangi]

Indeed, that's the article I read! It's fascinating. Hmm - it makes me wonder something - and feel free to correct me if it's a stupid notion - but, is it possible that some prehistoric crocodilians possessed filamentous integument? Perhaps some terrestrial crocs, whose lifestyles differed completely from those of the modern variety?

I don't think we can rule it out, would it really be so strange? Like the article says, instead of feathers evolving from scutes it could be the other way around. Highly speculative but intriguing. Gotta love science.

[Gryphoceratops]

Are we sure scales had to re-evolve in birds?  Regardless if feathers go back farther than previously thought its not like scales ever had to be replaced by feathers.  Birds like owls have scales and feathers growing amongst each other on their feet for instance.   

[Gwangi]

Are we sure scales had to re-evolve in birds?  Regardless if feathers go back farther than previously thought its not like scales ever had to be replaced by feathers.  Birds like owls have scales and feathers growing amongst each other on their feet for instance.

But in the study in question they were able to grow feathers in place of scutes on the bird's foot which lead them to speculate that feathers may have evolved into the scutes which could mean that those dinosaurs and other archosaurs with scutes actually have modified feathers in a sense.  I don't think anyone is saying scales re-evolved in birds, rather these particular kinds of scales (also found in dinosaurs and crocodiles) evolved from feathers making feathers the primitive characteristic.

[Gryphoceratops]

Are we sure scales had to re-evolve in birds?  Regardless if feathers go back farther than previously thought its not like scales ever had to be replaced by feathers.  Birds like owls have scales and feathers growing amongst each other on their feet for instance.

But in the study in question they were able to grow feathers in place of scutes on the bird's foot which lead them to speculate that feathers may have evolved into the scutes which could mean that those dinosaurs and other archosaurs with scutes actually have modified feathers in a sense.  I don't think anyone is saying scales re-evolved in birds, rather these particular kinds of scales (also found in dinosaurs and crocodiles) evolved from feathers making feathers the primitive characteristic.

Ahh okay I understand now sorry I got a bit confused for a second there.  Interesting...Yeah I'd love to see if there is a paper of this or something. 

[Arioch]

Are we sure scales had to re-evolve in birds?  Regardless if feathers go back farther than previously thought its not like scales ever had to be replaced by feathers.  Birds like owls have scales and feathers growing amongst each other on their feet for instance.

But in the study in question they were able to grow feathers in place of scutes on the bird's foot which lead them to speculate that feathers may have evolved into the scutes which could mean that those dinosaurs and other archosaurs with scutes actually have modified feathers in a sense.  I don't think anyone is saying scales re-evolved in birds, rather these particular kinds of scales (also found in dinosaurs and crocodiles) evolved from feathers making feathers the primitive characteristic.

Unfortunately we don't have any evidence of non avian dinosaurs possesing the same kind of scutes or scales presents in birds that apparently evolved from feathers (reticulae). Some fosilized skin impressions may ressemble them superficially but is to soon to even speculate. Though we probably can assume that they were present in most avimerigians.

[Seijun]

To answer a previous question, it was on youtube, from the user "donexodus2" that I heard a very brief mention of an experiment turning reptile scales into feathers. I cant remember if he said "reptiles" or if he said "lizards", but I dont think he said it was crocodiles. Regardless of which it was, I am still skeptical. Wouldn't the internet be plastered with pictures of this if it could be done? IMO it would be a huge breakthrough to have any reptile born or hatched with feathers.

[Gryphoceratops]

So its not the original clip that was mentioned but I DID manage to track down the article from the National Geographic.  Its from February 2011.

"Although these scaly beasts obviously don't have feathers today, the discovery of the same gene in alligators that is involved in building feathers in birds suggests that perhaps their ancestors did, 250 million years ago, before the lineages diverged.  So perhaps the question to ask, say some scientists, is not how birds got their feathers, but how alligators lost theirs." 

Its by Carl Zimmer whom to my knowledge is a credible science writer.  What I can get from this is that the gene that takes part in the development of feathers is present in crocodilians but it doesn't necessarily mean that feathers were ever expressed in crocodilians.