Star Wars, an original idea or borrowed?

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Late in the 60's and early 70's a rift began to widen between the artistic force known as Jack "the king" Kirby amd Marvel helmed by Stan Lee. Kirby sought more control of his artistic creations, perhaps even royalties, and was annoyed that once comics were published his original artwork was kept and never returned.
  As the relationship between Jack and Marvel soured, Kirby began entertaining ideas of working for national Periodical publications, the company known today as DC comics, and also the the distributor at that time for, ironically enough , Marvel comics.
   Wooed by Dc and given free rein to create Kirby began work on several titles and characters. Most notably this time period would mark when Kirby created one of the most iconic storylines he had ever brought together. He began writing and drawing a title, New Gods, as well as Forever People and also Mister Miracle, while also writing and drawing Jimmy Olsen, and scripting Lois Lane. Comic afficionados to this day recognize the fruits of this effort, as a masterpiece titled "the fourth world trilogy".
  Using all of these titles and characters, Kirby spun a majestic tapestry of the "New Gods" and created such characters as Mister Miracle, Darkseid, and even Steppenwolf, whom we all were able to enjoy in the recent Justice League movie. Basically the story plays out as good vs. evil...Darkseid the villian, and inspiration for the Marvel Thanos, vs Highfather, Orion and earth.
   At some point it was bound to happen and opinions widely clash and vary  but is hinted and often teased this story was the cloth George Lucas in fact borrow much of the premise for Star Wars and its characters from. Of course the noble fans of Lucas denounce it one and all while the Kirby fans consider him the father of so many pillars of our culture that it is generally accepted this is yet another he scripted.
     What is the basis for the comparison?Most people accept Lucas helped fill in at a Comic book store as counter help during the early seventies while he was composing his epic tale. What are the similarities to each other ......Consider Darkseid, Darthvader, who are quite similar....in fact, come to the Dark-side  Luke!Coincidence? Perhaps....Vader resided on the Death Star or was closely connected to it, which appears suspicioulsy much like Apokolips from the New gods stories. The all power in Star Wars, the force...New Gods the source. Obi wan is a dead ringer for High Father Izaya of the new gods, and some of the characters from forever people resemble Chewbaca, Princess Leia (beautiful Dreamer, Hans Solo etc.
   Even more striking however is the plotline itself....in Star wars, Luke and Leia are children of the villian Darth vader, and we are given that odd addition in a striking moment when Vader says...I am your father Luke...one of the most unexpected and jarring developments produced in a film. Within the new gods, the two leaders exchange sons, to insure peace between their worlds. Highfather sends his Son to reside with Darkseid and Darkseids son, Orion is raised on New Genesis, under Highfather. Eventually highfathers son escapes Apokolips, comes to earth and is Mister Miracle, while Orion, Darkseids son begins his quest...yes, to stop his father from seizing control of the universe. Sound familiar?Kirbys original parademons were often clad in white and looked remarkably like....Stormtroopers.While there are countless other similarities, the debate rages to this day. Lucas has often credited those he said inspired his story, but has never mentioned the Dc comics storyline. In fact those Lucas has credited are all entities that would not be capable of collecting any form of compensation for their work , however Dc might have if given credit for the ideas. My own instincts are there is far too much similarity, and there was some borrowing, although to what degree and how much is happenstance will probably never be known or established clearly....Kirby is deceased, Lucas has sold his production of new Star wars efforts to Disney and many of the principles are long gone...but still an interesting idea.
    Not intended to get anyone upset, just a possible topic for discussion and perhaps input

[Loon]

Star Wars is obviously a collection of borrowed ideas, Lucasfilm has not been shy about this. The films are inspired by many things from comics, such as Marvel and DC, to movies and film serials. Heck, Vader was even supposedly inspired by Richard Nixon.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Indeed Lucas has been very verbal crediting many sources....often....with the notable and puzzling exception here possibly

[CityRaptor]

Also Samurai movies. And apparently the french comic Valerian:

[tyrantqueen]

I'm no Star Wars fan, but I remember reading somewhere that Lucas borrowed a lot of ideas from Frank Herbert's Dune, either consciously or unconsciously. As they say, there is nothing new under the sun....

[stargatedalek]

Everything borrows from something else to some extent, I would say Star Wars is safely it's own thing by this point.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

This is why I was glad to see Disney take over with this all, and begin moving it further from the original source material ...however, my post was more referring to the original Lucas created plot and ideas, which are not so far removed. The vintage star wars most are familiar with is arguably derived from a comic book story that I feel is one of the best stories ever done, which I am keenly fond of. I guess imitation may be the highest form of flattery in this case, since it is unlikely this late in the game Lucas will have a change of heart, credit Kirby with his contributions and perhaps give some concession to his estate.
   Oh well, we still have the ewoks right?

[BlueKrono]

The theme of "good guys vs. bad guys" goes back long before movies or comics, so you can't really hand that to either one. Authors like Verne, Heinlein and Asimov pretty much created the scifi genre, but Frank Herbert was really the father of modern scifi as we know it today with his Dune series. Star Wars is Dune as Dungeons & Dragons is to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings - a more popular, less dense version very much in debt to the former. 

[tyrantqueen]

The theme of "good guys vs. bad guys" goes back long before movies or comics, so you can't really hand that to either one. Authors like Verne, Heinlein and Asimov pretty much created the scifi genre, but Frank Herbert was really the father of modern scifi as we know it today with his Dune series. Star Wars is Dune as Dungeons & Dragons is to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings - a more popular, less dense version very much in debt to the former.

It's a shame that Dune has never gotten a truly decent movie adaptation. David Lynch's movie is...um, yeah.

[RobinGoodfellow]

The theme of "good guys vs. bad guys" goes back long before movies or comics, so you can't really hand that to either one. Authors like Verne, Heinlein and Asimov pretty much created the scifi genre, but Frank Herbert was really the father of modern scifi as we know it today with his Dune series. Star Wars is Dune as Dungeons & Dragons is to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings - a more popular, less dense version very much in debt to the former.

It's a shame that Dune has never gotten a truly decent movie adaptation. David Lynch's movie is...um, yeah.

(..sorry, a little off-topic: http://observer.com/2017/11/denis-villeneuve-dune-reboot-david-lynch/ )

[amargasaurus cazaui]

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/12/why-jack-kirby-is-probably-the-forgotten-father-of.html


Another take and more examples.....I have met Scioli the artist questioned in the piece, and he answered precisely word for word the same way when I asked him. I almost felt his response was rehearsed and a bit...forced. Plus side, his work and art appears quite Kirby-esque and is a wonder to see....

[Loon]

Here's an interesting piece about the potential Dinotopia influences in Star Wars Episode 1. The two always struck me as visually similar, now I may know why.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080927215721/http://www.echostation.com/interview/gurney.htm

[amargasaurus cazaui]

A perfect explanation of the method he has used in creating his other works...to borrow visualizations and names and even elements without crediting in a way that would require him to offer royalties or share credit, if you accept that the arguments are true and notice the similarities.
  The article makes a strong case for that at least in the instance mentioned.

[Ravonium]

Star Wars is definitely a collection of borrowed ideas, but there is no way any of the creators of the borrowed works would win a lawsuit against Star Wars (unless those creators are associated with another multimillion dollar franchise/studio OR they have an estate compared . Even if they do still win (which is unlikely considering that George Lucas has a networth of 5.1 billion dollars, and therefore likely has better access to legal resources than any of the creators Star Wars has been claimed to borrow from.), it is unlikely whatever bill George Lucas has to pay will make him get along any worse than the average person in America.

In the end, a majority of well-renowned works borrow from others in some way or another, but only a small minority borrow to the degree where it can be considered a rip-off.

Going to a moderately relevant topic, has anyone else here seen or at least heard of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtRU8cMp0Nk

[amargasaurus cazaui]

While it would be nice if such a thing as compensation for those whom have been plagiarized could be somehow managed, I agree it is doubtful that such a thing would occur. Proving the copying of a visual or an ideal is a tricky and elusive thing, and if Kirby chose not to pursue it while alive , it is doubtful his estate would at such a late date.
   A few flaws however in your reasoning...Kirby might have passed away already but his interests can always be represented by his estate, much like many other famous deceased artists, from Michael Jackson to Elvis Presley...death has little bearing on the theft of artistic property.If they chose to, they could pursue this quite easily , and as the work was also property of DC comics, it is not like they would be alone in their efforts. The new gods and is characters are firmly in the hands of DC comics and they may choose to protect those rights.
  Only now due to the acquisition of Fox does Disney have any control over the first star wars movie, and has only quetionable rights to the other two Lucas originnally created. ....and even then merchandising for the first film belongs to Lucas as well...it is at best now a mucky mess and just figuring out who controls what would take a major undertaking. Fox originally produced the first star wars epic, but Lucas Negotiated for all rights to the sequels and all mechandising related to the series for himself.
  Even then, when the original concepts were borrowed and plagarized, all of it was either property of fox or Lucas...as I said a tangled mess, and likely not to involve Disney themselves.

[Ravonium]

Regardless of how many films they actually own the rights to, Disney will likely be involved in the lawsuit since they still have a major role in some aspects of ownership of the Star Wars franchise.


Still, Fox and Lucas are likely to win a lawsuit against the estates of most, if not all of the people that Star Wars has been claimed to borrow from in this thread.

[Loon]

OK, I'll admit that I was incorrect about Disney having ownership over all of the films and the artist being dead having a major impact on the lawsuit, but even if Lucas was the only one who had to participate in the (unlikely to happen) lawsuit, it is unlikely he would lose it.

I'm pretty sure Disney's recent purchase of 20th Century Fox gives them ownership over all Star Wars films.

[Ravonium]

I'm pretty sure Disney's recent purchase of 20th Century Fox gives them ownership over all Star Wars films.

It probably does, although I highly doubt they've been given absolute ownership over all Star Wars films.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Here are a few pieces so you can see for yourself how complicated the rights questions are regarding basically the first six films......Fox being purchased by Disney did alter the landscape, but Fox could not sell what they did not own....

http://deadline.com/2015/12/star-wars-franchise-george-lucas-historic-rights-deal-tom-pollock-1201669419/


http://www.slashfilm.com/20th-century-fox-still-owns-rights-to-first-six-star-wars-films-making-original-box-set-difficult/