Saurian's new Tyrannosaurus

[Lizerd]

@ITdactyl very likely we would see very little, only seeing some as we got closer to the animal. Basically its like leg or arm hair on us or large animals.

[stargatedalek]

The feathers have been a discussion as far as I'm concerned nothing more than that. I dont remember reading or hearing about any actual evidence or published works talking about feathers being a thing other than speculation

There is plenty of evidence. For one, ancestors of Tyrannosaurus had feathers, we know, for 100% certain, that it possessed the genetic capacity for them. You may not want to call this "actual evidence", but it's as much evidence as we have for Smilodon having fur, or for Kelenken having feathers, so the consensus disagrees with you.

Additionally, both Tyrannosaurus and Tarbosaurus have impressions of multiple textures. The feet and legs were covered in traditionally bird-like scales, while Tarbosaurus had smooth skin on its neck and Tyrannosaurus had impressions of dubious ID on its flanks (which, even assuming they are scales, are distinct from the ones on their feet).

There is considerable evidence for both animals having feathers, both physical and genetic. It is no more speculation than suggesting they did not have them.

There are also a number of things that are simply in error that they refuse to go back and change and yet they'll completely drop everything they were doing and redesign Tyrannosaurus entirely at the slightest justification of scales. Game is unoptimized and barely runs on high end computers? Nope, gotta ditch the feathers first. Placeholder combat system completely unusable? Nope, can't work on combat when we could be making a new Tyrannosaurus.

I've seen this kind of criticism in other games such as the isle before. Game designers are usually specialized in different areas. One person works on graphics, another works on bugs and another works on mechanisms and such. The graphic designers aren't just going to sit around and wait for other aspects of the game to finish so that they can give the fan base the impression they are staying focused.

As for the new Rex design I think it looks great. It definitely does the animal justice. Although perhaps the tail could be beefed up a little more to add some balance. But it may just be the positioning.

None of that holds true here.

First of all, The Isle has never made any grandiose claims of scientific accuracy or integrity. They are not obligated to uphold claims they did not make. But that games development process has been fraught with bad decisions, borderline abuse of the community, and poor organization. The Isle is, to put it kindly, a train-wreck. It should never be held up as a positive example.

Even assuming (incorrectly*) that remaking the Tyrannosaurus only required input from design and art personnel, there were other more important things for them to be working on. A number of creatures, environmental assets, animations, and even UI elements still need to be made. From a purely game design perspective there is no excuse for going back and spending over 300 hours remaking a perfectly usable asset when there is more stuff to be done.

And that's from a game design standpoint, but remember Saurian has claimed to be more than "just another game". They've placed themselves on a pedestal, claiming to represent both scientific accuracy and integrity. They have a responsibility being in the position they've put themselves in, and they've failed it.

As early as the 1980's people were suggesting the second and third fingers of maniraptorans may have been connected. And UV scans during the last few years have confirmed this beyond any shadow of a doubt. They also confirmed propatagium. All of this was considered almost a certainly for probably close to a decade. There is no excuse for the Saurian developers to have ignored this in the first place, let alone to actively refuse to fix it after the fact.

Even after acknowledging that they wouldn't go back and fix it, they then repeated this error with the new Pectinodon model!

Fixing these issues would require no extensive research, no consultations with "experts**", and no serious changes to the creature designs. All that needs to be changed are the art assets. But no, they can't be bothered. They can't even be bothered to not make the same errors again.

*Reading their blog post about the Tyrannosaurus redesign it's very clear they dedicated a lot of people and resources to this. And by their own admission spent over 300 hours on it. This is a monumental waste of resources.

**Some might be interested in reading about what happened regarding their Mosasaur. I had been told the proportions were wrong but was still surprised to learn there is a whole story behind it. Incinerox on the Zoo Tycoon Round Table was nice enough to give an in-depth explanation of what transpired.
https://thezt2roundtable.com/saurian-game-t14705-s900.html#p583719

I am not completly sure about how i feel about this.

I mean YES Science may currently dictate that Tyrannosaurus was mostly scaly, and i am willing to accept that.

But this leaves me, very many qustions about other dinosaurs.

For instance

If this is how T.rex looked, then what about the simaler sized Deinochirus?   It had a Pygostyle of all things. yet it grew up to almost the same size as T.rex.

If one were to create a model of that dinosaur, How much of it (if any part of it) would be featherd?

Most recent paper does not equate to current evidence, or even most recent evidence.

If I really wanted to I could write a paper regurgitating perceived evidence that birds are descended from turtles, and if I went to the right people to peer review it I could probably get it published in some fashion. That wouldn't make the statement any more true though.

Now, is the idea of scaled Tyrannosaurus as ridiculous as birds being descended from turtles? Obviously not, but the idea that a single paper should be the only point of reference and assumed correct by default purely on the basis of being the most recent is certainly that ridiculous.

And again, we have physical evidence of multiple dermal textures for large Tyrannosaurs. At the very least they were not wholly covered in scales but rather had portions of exposed skin, and there is little reason to have this other than to accommodate feathers.

Deinocheirus should be reconstructed with a full covering of feathers similar to other Ornithomimids. And given the pygostyle it should probably have some form of display feathering on its tail.

[Syndicate Bias]

I'd prefer if you linked all of your references to your argument.

[Lizerd]

Am sensing the begging of a flame war? Nah. Anyways as for fluffy ness, I would agree that one paper is far from enough to disprove feathers entirety. You need a lot more than that

[Syndicate Bias]

Am sensing the begging of a flame war? Nah. Anyways as for fluffy ness, I would agree that one paper is far from enough to disprove feathers entirety. You need a lot more than that

Never said I read one article Lizerd. I dont get where you are coming from, half the time you go completely offtopic or dont have much to add.

There is no flame war here that's childish, just wanted to see what stargatedalek had to link that's all

On other news to those who play Saurian do you recommend it over the aisle or ark? Does it have potential?

[stargatedalek]

Am sensing the begging of a flame war? Nah. Anyways as for fluffy ness, I would agree that one paper is far from enough to disprove feathers entirety. You need a lot more than that

Never said I read one article Lizerd. I dont get where you are coming from, half the time you go completely offtopic or dont have much to add.

There is no flame war here that's childish, just wanted to see what stargatedalek had to link that's all

On other news to those who play Saurian do you recommend it over the aisle or ark? Does it have potential?

I do not recommend Saurian. False advertising aside, the game barely runs and the assets actually don't fit together into all that appealing of a final product. The game itself looks flat and washed out. Even if you 100% the game in its current state it provides very little to do and essentially no replay value at all.

The Isle is a complete mess behind the scenes but the game is in a playable state. It has no such thing as permanent progress at the moment though, no single player, and updates frequently wipe all progression (which can take tens of hours for some species to reach adult). Don't expect a lot from it, but you will probably get your $20 worth. And as a bonus if the game ever does get completed you'll have gotten a finished game at roughly a third of the normal cost.

I still don't recommend The Isle in general, but as an alternative to Saurian absolutely.

ARK tends to get a lot of hate on here for its inaccurate designs, but I think it's a great game. The animals are very stylized but it's not like Jurassic Park or The Isle where they look like living versions of inaccurate dinosaurs, the dinosaurs in ARK are stylized in such a way as to make them feel genuinely unique and fun, and designs are typically inspired by gameplay mechanics rather than popular tropes.

Official servers are cancer, do not use them. The game is a lot of fun and has some very interesting mechanics but you'll never experience most of them on official or in PVP. Game is best played with mods in single-player or private servers.

[Syndicate Bias]

Am sensing the begging of a flame war? Nah. Anyways as for fluffy ness, I would agree that one paper is far from enough to disprove feathers entirety. You need a lot more than that

Never said I read one article Lizerd. I dont get where you are coming from, half the time you go completely offtopic or dont have much to add.

There is no flame war here that's childish, just wanted to see what stargatedalek had to link that's all

On other news to those who play Saurian do you recommend it over the aisle or ark? Does it have potential?

I do not recommend Saurian. False advertising aside, the game barely runs and the assets actually don't fit together into all that appealing of a final product. The game itself looks flat and washed out. Even if you 100% the game in its current state it provides very little to do and essentially no replay value at all.

The Isle is a complete mess behind the scenes but the game is in a playable state. It has no such thing as permanent progress at the moment though, no single player, and updates frequently wipe all progression (which can take tens of hours for some species to reach adult). Don't expect a lot from it, but you will probably get your $20 worth. And as a bonus if the game ever does get completed you'll have gotten a finished game at roughly a third of the normal cost.

I still don't recommend The Isle in general, but as an alternative to Saurian absolutely.

ARK tends to get a lot of hate on here for its inaccurate designs, but I think it's a great game. The animals are very stylized but it's not like Jurassic Park or The Isle where they look like living versions of inaccurate dinosaurs, the dinosaurs in ARK are stylized in such a way as to make them feel genuinely unique and fun, and designs are typically inspired by gameplay mechanics rather than popular tropes.

Official servers are cancer, do not use them. The game is a lot of fun and has some very interesting mechanics but you'll never experience most of them on official or in PVP. Game is best played with mods in single-player or private servers.

Well that blows I was really hoping either of those two games would have replaced Ark. I cant stand Tek Tier mega tribes on official servers I end up getting caged and base wiped and dinos killed everytime I join back. Been staying on single player since. Hoping WC remakes some of the designs in TLC3 for their dinos some mlm of them need it

[Sim]

I am not completly sure about how i feel about this.

I mean YES Science may currently dictate that Tyrannosaurus was mostly scaly, and i am willing to accept that.

But this leaves me, very many qustions about other dinosaurs.

For instance

If this is how T.rex looked, then what about the simaler sized Deinochirus?   It had a Pygostyle of all things. yet it grew up to almost the same size as T.rex.

If one were to create a model of that dinosaur, How much of it (if any part of it) would be featherd?

@Takama

Regarding Deinocheirus: It having a "pygostyle" I don't think affects whether it had feathers or not.  In extant birds the pygostyle is where the rectrices attach, but there's evidence that at least some Mesozoic dinosaurs had a "pygostyle" even when rectrices didn't attach to it.  This is known from Beipiaosaurus, which has a pygostyle, but its tail feathering is preserved which shows it was just a simple surface covering like on other parts of the animal such as the neck, and that it didn't have rectrices.  So although the tail of Beipaiosaurus is feathered, it appears its pygostyle is just an internal structure that has no effect on its integument.

Rectrices are pennaceous feathers, and pennaceous feathers are only known to be present in pennaraptorans.  So it's interesting that the one time a pygostyle is found in a non-pennaraptoran with tail feathering preserved (Beipiaosaurus), the animal indeed doesn't have rectrices.  I can't think of any reason this would be different for Deinocheirus which also isn't a pennaraptoran.  I can only guess how likely it might be that dinosaurs like Deinocheirus and Therizinosaurus were feathered.  My guess is that they were feathered, as the average annual temperature of the Nemegt Formation is estimated to be 10-14°C, and in addition I get the impression their lifestyle would not produce as much body heat from movement as for example the lifestyle of a tyrannosaurid.  Also, in the case of Deinocheirus it could have spent a considerable amount of time in water.  Even if the only parts of Deinocheirus that were being submerged were the hindlimbs, and the head when dipped into the water to find food, I think the water would have a cooling effect.

Deinocheirus is a maniraptoform though. They never loose feathers no matter how big they get.

@Gothmog the Baryonyx

I don't know of any evidence for maniraptoriformes being locked into feathers.  However, I am aware of evidence that supports pennaraptorans always being feathered.  Pennaraptorans have pennaceous feathers which are more versatile than the filamentous feathers more "basal" coelurosaur groups appear to have been limited to.  From what I've read, pennaceous feathers are better at regulating body temperature compared to filamentous feathers which function similar to hair.  Pennaceous feathers can also form wings, which the forelimbs of pennaraptorans are modified into.  Also, in the Saurian page linked to in the first post, it says this:

One of our major consultants on this reconstruction, Scott Hartman, has been conducting physiological modelling on early dinosaurs and other reptiles, including quantifying thermal constraints (Hartman 2015, Hartman et al. 2016). He is not working specifically on T. rex, but his research has implications for its potential feathering. According to his research, depending on ambient temperature, animals stop receiving any benefit from dermal insulation at somewhere between 1 and 3 tonnes. Due to the costs of producing such integument, this may cause these traits to be selected against, as has occurred in many large mammals and fur.

For what it's worth, I don't know of any pennaraptoran specimen that has been estimated at 3 or more tonnes.

[suspsy]

Thomas Holtz had a very interesting poster at SVP this past weekend:

https://geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/SVP18/HoltzSVP2018Poster.pdf?fbclid=IwAR355Umw9vRbKj2TVp6pUFw2q_dbLwEtk-R7wZaPxQWjjU_BKfvos-U_e7M

I think what we all need to keep in mind here is that paleontology, like any other field of science, is falsifiable. Every single conclusion that gets peer reviewed and published can potentially be overturned or debunked with new evidence and research, and practically nothing is set in stone.

Does the current evidence appear to suggest that Tyrannosaurus rex lacked feathers or filaments? Yes.

Does the current evidence show for a fact that Tyrannosaurus rex lacked feathers or filaments? No.

This topic isn't going to be settled any time soon.

[stargatedalek]

Thomas Holtz had a very interesting poster at SVP this past weekend:

https://geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/SVP18/HoltzSVP2018Poster.pdf?fbclid=IwAR355Umw9vRbKj2TVp6pUFw2q_dbLwEtk-R7wZaPxQWjjU_BKfvos-U_e7M

I think what we all need to keep in mind here is that paleontology, like any other field of science, is falsifiable. Every single conclusion that gets peer reviewed and published can potentially be overturned or debunked with new evidence and research, and practically nothing is set in stone.

Does the current evidence appear to suggest that Tyrannosaurus rex lacked feathers or filaments? Yes.

Does the current evidence show for a fact that Tyrannosaurus rex lacked feathers or filaments? No.

This topic isn't going to be settled any time soon.

There is no "current evidence". It's just that a group of people decided to publish on remains that have been public knowledge for years (albeit not formally referenced in print), and in their conclusion extrapolated a few centimeters of dubious impressions equating to a wholly scaled animal.

The only thing that changed with that papers publishing is perception. There was no new remains, no new conclusions, just a decent counterargument that people are taking at face value.

[ITdactyl]

That's an interesting read @Sim.  I always thought pygostyle = tail fan (of some sort).  It was good you pointed out Beipiaosaurus as an example.

@stargatedalek , I'll probably still try The Isle just to satisfy curiosity... but after reading your piece... eeee... that's disappointing.

S @Syndicate Bias , on the point of comparison, I can absentmindedly spend several hours more playing Saurian than Ark.  I guess I enjoyed playing as a raptor more than playing as a hunter-gatherer but I'm not saying Saurian is the superior game (just a personal preference).  I quit Ark because I couldn't stand the toxic community, and it was getting lonely playing solo (I uninstalled before the Quetzal update, so I didn't get to enjoy riding my fav animal or the "flying fortress" mechanic it brought to the game).  I quit Saurian because it hated my PC.

I did hate that I couldn't straight outrun a Rex as a sub-adult Dakotaraptor... but maybe I was just doing something wrong.

@Lizerd, sorry, poor sentence construction on my part.  I wasn't really asking.  'Just meant to say whatever scientific consensus 2019 brings, the current stocky model already looks good. So the team should stop making Rex look pretty and start optimizing the game.

@suspsy , thanks for sharing that poster link - that was an awesome read.  I especially liked the use of Suidae as a point of explanation.

[Lizerd]

@ITdactyl no problem. So now is Saurian screwed? Does this mean... that my D&D simulator is more realistic? I mean looking at it, I am disappointed, no bleeding, no bone breaking, no unconsciousness, and worst is no cruel punishment for doing stupid stuff.
(As for quitting ARK, fair enough, I only do single player)

[ITdactyl]

@Lizerd, to be fair to the team, i think a lot of the assets just haven't been implemented yet.  However I have to agree that because of this, the game loses the realism that it promised [to deliver].  The dinosaurs may look realistic, but they don't play like real animals.

I'm starting to hate this trend which even big companies like Blizzard seem to do.  Diablo 3 took 2 years from release before it reached a state where the gaming experience could be called great.  At that time, interest has already waned.  I hope the same doesn't happen to Saurian.

[Lizerd]

@ITdactyl I think that the idea of realistic looking animals is a great one, but what good is it if they don't behave realistically or interact with the environment like they should is shoe thing that is a massive flaw. Take say ARK, while not accurate the animals interact with the environment in a very smooth way, and they also have a decent while unrealistic combat system. For a game the promises realism, we should see more of things along the lines of well, reality, and like reality a realistic game should be set on "Brutal" difficulty, tripping, colliding, etc. So far. Nothing on it   

[Sim]

There is no "current evidence". It's just that a group of people decided to publish on remains that have been public knowledge for years (albeit not formally referenced in print), and in their conclusion extrapolated a few centimeters of dubious impressions equating to a wholly scaled animal.

The only thing that changed with that papers publishing is perception. There was no new remains, no new conclusions, just a decent counterargument that people are taking at face value.

@stargatedalek, it's untrue that no new remains were published in that paper.  Before the T. rex skin patches were published, basically all that was known was that skin impressions from T. rex's tail were known.  Only when the paper was published did it become public knowledge that skin from T. rex's neck and ilium is also known.  In this post I made a while back, I described more in-depth what became public knowledge with the publishing of that paper (Reply #33): http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5857.msg174785#msg174785