Could ceratopsians gallop? Need help for a drawing ASAP.

[Raptoress]

Hi all. I desperately need help on this. I've been drawing a Teratophoneus hunting a Kosmoceratops for my dad tomorrow. I have drawn the Kosmoceratops in a galloping pose, referenced from a sculpture by Michael Trcic. It was only after I asked people what they thought of it that I got conflicting arguments with some people saying they could gallop whilst others say they couldn't. Being dyspraxic, I work much better with visual references rather than written references. Does anyone have a good visual reference of a ceratopsian running at full speed so I can try and edit it? Thank you!

(Yes, I'm aware that I really should've researched this prior to drawing it but it just didn't come to mind.)

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Hi all. I desperately need help on this. I've been drawing a Teratophoneus hunting a Kosmoceratops for my dad tomorrow. I have drawn the Kosmoceratops in a galloping pose, referenced from a sculpture by Michael Trcic. It was only after I asked people what they thought of it that I got conflicting arguments with some people saying they could gallop whilst others say they couldn't. Being dyspraxic, I work much better with visual references rather than written references. Does anyone have a good visual reference of a ceratopsian running at full speed so I can try and edit it? Thank you!

(Yes, I'm aware that I really should've researched this prior to drawing it but it just didn't come to mind.)

I had always understood that they could not and was able to cite several tests done that suggested they indeed could not however, I found a recent paper by , I believe, GSP and the the topic was indeed galloping ceratopsians. The determination and final outcome was yes they could likely gallop quite well, which was a surprise to me . If you need the actual paper I can locate and send it for you, but it is long, makes for dry reading and is quite in depth. For visual references, You could possibly look in the book Dinosaur Heresies ...cannot remember if there is some good art work for that or not but I know that it is covered in there as well. I could also send you the book New Perspectives on Horned Dinosaurs, if you want it to research with....practically a bible for ceratopsian lovers.

[Takama]

Edit.  It seems I posted this in the wrong thread somehow

As for the Issue at hand.   I cant see a Galloping Ceratopsin, but i think it would make more sense if it were just walking fast as possible

[Plasticbeast95]

From what I understand, there is equal evidence to say they could and couldn't. I find that a several ton animal would have a hard time attaining speeds required for galloping, also, the Ceratopsian body shape is not exactly streamlined.

I guess it could be argued that Rhinos are able to reach surprising speed, but one must remember that they are not a substitute for a Ceratopsian, as there are too many bio-structural differences. 

[andrewsaurus rex]

so, it's six years later.  Has there been any consensus reached on whether ceratopsians could gallop?

It's a bit of a broad question I guess as it's possible some could and some couldn't ie smaller ones could and larger,  heavier ones could not.  It may be safer to say they could run at a fast trot.

I hope they could gallop.......a galloping Triceratops sure looks cool. 

[ITdactyl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLWoNft5Jk

This link from 1990 says they can't:
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Reining+in+a+galloping+Triceratops.-a09021920

But this paper from March 2000 (Greg Paul, Per Christiansen), say they should be able to
http://gspauldino.com/Forelimb.pdf

It's interesting that no one else has published a paper about ceratopsian limb postures or locomotion aside form the one listed above.

Rhinos at 3-5 tons can gallop, Elephants at 7 tons cannot - but it seems this is not even a weight issue because even infant/juvenile elephants cannot gallop.  So the constraints/considerations are likely biomechanical. Given that Triceratops have limb proportions and postures that are different from both Rhinos and elephants, I'd echo Plasticbeast95 that neither would serve as good analogues.

(oh look, I typed a lot and didn't provide an adequate answer  )

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Even if they could gallop, where would you get a saddle that size and who would yell...."Hi Ho silver!"

[ITdactyl]

 

...where would you get a saddle that size

You vastly underestimate the power of aliexpress...

and who would yell...."Hi Ho silver!"

There are so many willing participants.

[andrewsaurus rex]

bareback and everyone knows you yell "charge" on the back of a dinosaur.

[Lanthanotus]

bareback and everyone knows you yell "charge" on the back of a dinosaur.

Ouch (on the delivering and the receiving side:D)

[Lanthanotus]

To add a serious answer to this intersting question,...

From what I understand of the general body plan and skeletal construction of ceratopsians, they were able to gallop. That being said, galloping is a very energy demanding movement that also relies on certain physical conditions that only exist in species to a certain size. For example, if you compare the general body plan of varanid lizards you`ll find comparably little differences through the genus. You will also find, that the body proportions change little during growth to adulthood (with the expection of head size and tail lenght). However, while young varanid lizards of the larger and heavier species (i.e. V. varius, V. komodoensis, V. salvator) are capable of jumping, grown adults are not. This is because weight grow proportional to lenght, so an animal just 10% longer than another, may weight up to 30% more in those species.

So in my personal view (and with this biomechanical background), I`d say a Protoceratops could gallop, a Nasutoceratops probabyl aswell, ... but a Triceratops, ... I doubt it. Keep in mind though, that gallop is a movement with 3/4 limbs in the air at one time. A Trike could probably still reach a considerable speed with just one or two limbs in the air and still maybe could outcompete any human in the long run.

[andrewsaurus rex]

bareback and everyone knows you yell "charge" on the back of a dinosaur.

Ouch (on the delivering and the receiving side:D)

Dinosaur riding ain't for wimps.

[andrewsaurus rex]

And to continue the serious discussion as well, multi ton Rhinos can gallop.  In fact rhinos that are heavier than small elephants can gallop but the small elephant can't.   So this suggests to me that large ceratopsians could possibly gallop, in that weight may not be that big of a barrier to doing it.  So maybe it is safe to say that at least mid sized (4 ton) ceratopsians  and below could perhaps gallop.  Above that is  more of a question mark because one would have to figure weight eventually is going to be the deciding factor.

I am also wondering if the ability to gallop is more a brain thing, than a biomechanical thing.  Meaning, elephant brains may just not be hardwired to gallop...ie they just don't know how, it does take a specific coordination to do it.  Whereas the rhino, related to the horse, can gallop because it shares the brain hardwiring that a horse has.

[Justin_]

Can any extant animal that gallops run faster than it can gallop?

[stoneage]

Even if they could gallop, where would you get a saddle that size and who would yell...."Hi Ho silver!"

The masked man?  Kemo Sabe

[ITdactyl]

I was lamenting the lack of up to date papers regarding this topic but lo and behold, this came out:
https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/article/224/11/jeb217463/269062/The-evolutionary-biomechanics-of-locomotor?searchresult=1


On the topic of Triceratops galloping, it just reaffirms the studies done in 2000-01.
Triceratops and other giant ceratopsids have the skeletal strength to gallop, but we don't know yet if they had the muscle strength and behavior to do so.

BTW, congrats A @andrewsaurus , your hunch was spot on. accdg. to the author, several animals have the biomechanical ability to gallop but may not have the behavior to do so - the biomechanics and the behavior are 2 separate factors.

I'm aware this is more a "for fun" thread. Forgive this old man his indulgence - I'm just very interested with locomotion of giant organisms.

[andrewsaurus rex]

interesting stuff.  I guess 'behaviour' is a better way of saying it than 'brain being hardwired', but I guess it's essentially the same thing.

I suspect that 'behaviour' would be the most common limiting factor in animals that don't gallop.  It may have been a (rarely) evolved skill that gave an evolutionary advantage, as with horses.  I wonder how much faster galloping is compared to just balls out running as fast as you can.  Any studies on that?

As an aside, horses gallop at about 25-30 mph....up to 48mph in a short sprint.
Giraffes gallop a bit faster, at about 35 mph sustained.
Humans run at 27.5mph.....at least one of us did....Usain Bolt's record speed in the 100 meters.  Of course he only kept that speed up for a little over 9 seconds. 

Are there any estimated galloping speeds for Ceratopsians?....assuming the did gallop of course.

[Dusty Wren]

This thread has been a fascinating read. Speculating about the biomechanics of dinosaurs is a fun thought exercise.

I know that galloping has a strong genetic component in deer--while white-tailed deer and their closely related mule deer cousins can both gallop, the white-tails will gallop to escape predators while mule deer use a bounding gait (called a stot) when they really need to book it. When they do gallop, mulies are still slower than galloping white-tails. The difference seems to be due to selective pressures of the environment, since white-tails and mulies tend to prefer different types of landscapes.

Of course, ceratopsians are very different from deer. But it's kind of interesting to think that some ceratopsians may have galloped while others didn't because they occupied different habitats.   

[andrewsaurus rex]

it's a good reminder not to generalize too much when discussing dinosaurs or any extinct animals  ie all ceratopsians could gallop or no, ceratopsians couldn't gallop.  It's easy to fall into this 'generalization trap' with extincts.  I do it a lot.

The stotting behaviour of mule deer could just be a slightly altered strategy that evolved as a means of escaping predators; it has advantages despite being slower than a regular gallop.  Most famously done my Springbok, pronking (another name for it) makes the animal difficult to catch and has the added benefit of signalling to a predator that you are very healthy and are going to be a tough customer.....so the chase may never take place at all, as the predator just looks for an easier target.  It also has the advantage of warning other animals in the area that a predator is about.  Interesting to me, pronghorn also stot, despite being one of the fastest animals in the world and the fastest land animal in North America, by far.  So it's probably a trait left over from when there were faster predators about in NA and pure speed wasn't enough.

[Bowhead Whale]

I personnally think Ceratopsians COULD gallop, because they had rather long feet and toes. Elephants, for instance, cannot gallop because their finger bones and toe bones are just too short to make them even hop. But Ceratopsians were different, as their feet bones had about the same proportions as those of a rhinoceros. Only, maybe they could not run very fast. But they COULD run.