Why does BOTM keep making figures that are so overscale?

[andrewsaurus rex]

Three somewhat recent examples (there are several from the Ceratopsian series) are Utahraptor, Achillobator and Stegosaurus stenops.  I'm not saying they're a bit on the big side.  They are all pretty close to 1/12 scale; not even close to 1/18, which they are advertised to be (it's the same difference as between a 4 inch action figure and a 6 inch action figure).

Why not just brand them as 1/12 instead of the misleading 1/18 scale they put on everything?

[Shane]

They are not that overscaled, if you use the largest available estimates of size.

If you use a length of 30 feet for Stegosaurus and 23 feet for Utahraptor, the scale is essentially 1:18.

If you use more conservative estimates, then the scale shifts more toward 1:15 or so, but not really anywhere near 1:12.

1:12 would indicate a 19 foot Stegosaurus and a 15 foot Utahraptor, and I think it's widely accepted that Stegosaurus stenops could reach at least 25 feet and Utahraptor was conservatively at least 20 feet in length.

A 30 foot Stegosaurus might be larger than any known species of S. stenops, but the "Apex" fossil measures 27 feet, so it's not totally out of the question.

With regards to Achillobator, which is much closer to 15 feet in length, the reasoning is likely due to the shared sculpting between BOTM figures. They utilize a standard "buck" body for different size levels of their raptors, tyrannosaurids, ceratopsians, etc. so when it comes to Achillobator, they defer to the "large" Utahraptor-sized body.

[andrewsaurus rex]

S. stenops is considered to be around 20-21 feet.  Ungulatus, which was bigger was considered to be 23-25 feet.  Neither 30 feet.  If it were an ungulatus, i could probably live with the size, but not for a stenops  And i did say they were close to 1/12.  1/13 to 1/14 would be a more exact figure for a largish animal.  But that's still nearly 25% too big.  The difference between a 6 foot man and a 7 1/2 foot man.

To be fair, there are size estimates for Utahraptor that put it around 20 feet, but none of them are supported by known skull lengths or femur sizes, at least that i can find.  A better upper estimate is probably 18 feet....so the BOTM figure is still way too big at close to 24 scale feet.

[Shane]

S. stenops is considered to be around 20-21 feet.  Ungulatus, which was bigger was considered to be 23-25 feet.  Neither 30 feet.  If it were an ungulatus, i could probably live with the size, but not for a stenops  And i did say they were close to 1/12.  1/13 to 1/14 would be a more exact figure for a largish animal.  But that's still nearly 25% too big.  The difference between a 6 foot man and a 7 1/2 foot man.

To be fair, there are size estimates for Utahraptor that put it around 20 feet, but none of them are supported by known skull lengths or femur sizes, at least that i can find.  A better upper estimate is probably 18 feet....so the BOTM figure is still way too big at close to 24 scale feet.

Sorry, I meant ugulatus and not stenops. The figure is ostensibly labeled S. stenops, but I would guess that BOTM was using the largest known Stego (Apex) as the size estimate. Why? Because it's bigger and they want a bigger figure. If they ever do make a figure labeled ungulatus, it will likely use the same body because of the aforementioned shared buck usage. They aren't going to make a slightly bigger/slightly smaller version for scale purists.

And with Utahraptor, why would they err on the small side? Estimates put Utahraptor at 20-23 feet, the BOTM figure is comfortably 1:18 scale based on accepted estimates.

The true answer is that they are estimating, because the actual sizes are estimates, and they're utilizing shared sculpting to save money on molds.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Yes, i know what the size estimates are for Utahraptor, but i don't know where they come from..  The largest femur i can find for Utahraptor is 24 inches, from BYU 15645.  This translates to an animal of about 16.5 feet long.  So i was being generous with my 18 foot length maximum.  I have no idea where the 20-23 foot estimates originated.

I know many animal collectors don't care much about scale.  But if you're going to make a series that is touted as '1/18 scale' then at least make 'em close to 1/18 scale.  Some are, some are too small (Tarbosaaurus) and several are too big and i mean way too big.  If bodies are to be shared among figures, which i totally get, then do a bit of planning and choose a reasonable interim size between the animals you're going to represent with those body parts.  Why go with the over the top largest estimate for one when it will make the other 33% too big?  It's not being a scale purist to object to being that far out of whack.

[stargatedalek]

The short answer is that this is the reality of part sharing and action figures. The medium sized animals are scaled a little bit large to make the articulation work better, some end up oddly scaled to facilitate part sharing, and they're usually based on the highest available length estimates to make them visually impressive alongside human figures of the same advertised scale.

[Shane]

The short answer is that this is the reality of part sharing and action figures. The medium sized animals are scaled a little bit large to make the articulation work better, some end up oddly scaled to facilitate part sharing, and they're usually based on the highest available length estimates to make them visually impressive alongside human figures of the same advertised scale.

This, basically. They are going to err on the larger side based on "rule of cool". I doubt BOTM is narrowing down the individual species sizes of Stegosaurus, and likely just basing the size off of Apex, or just as likely googling "Stegosaurus maximum size" and pulling 30 feet from a Britannica article.

Regarding Tarbosaurus being too small, it again comes down to part sharing. Basically any tyrannosaurid in the 25-35 foot range is going to get the 20 inch body. So a 26 foot Albertosaurus is going to be more of a 1:15.5 scale while a 33 foot Tarbosaurus is more 1:21 scale but I would guess in their mind it "balances out" to an average of 1:18. They could have put the Tarbosaurus on the 27 inch body but I imagine they probably want to keep T. rex in its own size class.

I don't think anyone at BOTM is measuring femurs to extrapolate the most likely length. I think they're reading some articles and seeing "oh 20-23 feet, then the 15 inch body works."

[andrewsaurus rex]

yes i agree with what you've both said as to why it happens.  That doesn't mean i'm not annoyed as heck by it.     I guess my title for this thread was more rhetorical than anything...venting a bit , as it were.

Scale way-all-over-the-place-ness is very common in animal figures, even when the claim to be of a certain scale.....sadly BOTM is no different.  Very frustrating at times.

All the years i've been collecting 1/18 stuff, including animals, never in my wildest dreams did i ever think i'd be griping about dinosaur figures being too BIG....until Mattel and BOTM, there was virtually zilch available that was 1/18 in size.  Everything was small and smaller..

[Faelrin]

S @Shane The Stegosaurus sculpt was started prior to the announcement of Apex. In fact it was finished a few months prior (March 2024, where as Apex was announced in July). Digging through the Creative Beast instagram page, I see the sculpt was started back in late 2022. It was also hand sculpted by David Silva himself, when many of the recent sculpts (such as the Utahraptor and Achillobator for example) have been done digitally and 3D printed.

The ceratopsians were a mix of hand sculpted parts and digitally sculpted parts (depending on the body type, I know the Zuniceratops and Xenoceratops were hand sculpted by David at the very least). It was also the second kickstarter so they were even more dependent on part sharing when compared to some of the newer additions to the line.

[Shane]

S @Shane The Stegosaurus sculpt was started prior to the announcement of Apex. In fact it was finished a few months prior (March 2024, where as Apex was announced in July). Digging through the Creative Beast instagram page, I see the sculpt was started back in late 2022. It was also hand sculpted by David Silva himself, when many of the recent sculpts (such as the Utahraptor and Achillobator for example) have been done digitally and 3D printed.

Then I would imagine they're using a size estimate based on 30 feet (9 meters) which is what you get from a number of Google results including the aforementioned Britannica article.

A bit of Googling even brought up a thread on this forum discussing Stegosaurus ten years ago in 2015 that mentions a 9 meter length as if it's a well-known fact.

https://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4157.0

[Sim]

I remember David said the Tarbosaurus wasn't made bigger because he didn't believe there would be enough people willing to buy it at the cost it would be.

[crazy8wizard]

To be quite honest, I don't think the scale system with BOTM has ever been that rigorous. In real life, Saurornitholestes would be bigger than Velociraptor and Acheroraptor would be bigger than both of them, yet all of the raptors are the same size. Also Buitreraptor despite being only a little smaller than velociraptor is significantly smaller in the supposed 1/6th scale of the raptor series.

[Pliosaurking]

Yeah basically like others have said it comes down to part sharing. Now I'll say they have made figures that could have used a smaller or bigger already existing body size, however for the most part they aren't too out of scale. Some notably the Tarbosaurus would require an all new size mood as well, which would drive up the price.

[Flaffy]

I recall David having plans to have Tarbosaurus and Zhuchengtyrannus share a separate body sculpt from the other large Tyrannosaurs in the early stages of the campaign design. But with Zhuchengtyrannus being axed, it would not have made economic sense at the time to dedicate a unqiue sculpt to Tarbosaurus.

[crazy8wizard]

I recall a similar outcome with the smaller Ceratopsians, as there were plans for a Turanoceratops, Graciliceratops, and Leptoceratops that were cut (presumably for the same lack of sharable parts).