Fossil Dealer Busted

[ZoPteryx]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49451488/ns/technology_and_science-science/

I remember a discussion about this earlier, looks like the feds made a move.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I remember being offered the dinosaurs, the Taarbosaurus was incomplete and needed some compositing done, and the Saurolophus was being offered alongside a juvenile that was found with it or in close proximation. If I remember correctly he basically had most of one side of the Tarbo, and the duckbills were far more complete, however the prices were akin to complete dinosaurs. (millions, not thousands) His prices were far beyond anything I could even consider, aside from which the entire thing sounded rather......cloak and dagger. He stated he was selling them for a client on commission, however they were still in Mongolia etc. I always wondered how such well preserved and seemingly nice fossils were removed from China or Mongolia without being caught, guess now we know.

[postsaurischian]

Smuggling a 7.5 m fossil is definitely not a good idea .

[Simon]

I remember being offered the dinosaurs, the Taarbosaurus was incomplete and needed some compositing done, and the Saurolophus was being offered alongside a juvenile that was found with it or in close proximation. If I remember correctly he basically had most of one side of the Tarbo, and the duckbills were far more complete, however the prices were akin to complete dinosaurs. (millions, not thousands) His prices were far beyond anything I could even consider, aside from which the entire thing sounded rather......cloak and dagger. He stated he was selling them for a client on commission, however they were still in Mongolia etc. I always wondered how such well preserved and seemingly nice fossils were removed from China or Mongolia without being caught, guess now we know.

Interesting - I presume you work for a museum?  Or are you just an independently wealthy collector 

You remember that just a couple of months ago a US Federal court ordered that a Tarbosaurus skeleton of dubious origin had to be returned to Mongolia, voiding a 3 million dollar auction sale.

OTOH, here in the US there are some private collectors who dig up their own fossils (though I have no clue how many.)  One fellow in Texas has his own private museum, curated by amateur paleontologist "Dino George" Blasing who appears in that Dinosaur vs. Dinosaur History Channel show 5 years ago.  I remember that they excavated a 45-long Anatotitan about 10 years ago on private land.

I'm real torn about this topic because while private collectors increase the number of specimens found, the availability of those for study is limited at best, and many specimens are probably dug up less carefully than those dug up by real paleontologists.

OTOH, the Nanotyrannus and large Ceratopsian "Dueling Dinosaurs" which were dug up by private hunters and which has been studied by Bakker are probably the finest fossil finds ever found in N. America.  I hope they are bought and donated to a museum.  I don't know if any fossils are worth $7 M that they are asking, but if any are, those are IT.

(I hope you are not gonna start a debate over Nanotyrannus now!  )

[SBell]

I remember being offered the dinosaurs, the Taarbosaurus was incomplete and needed some compositing done, and the Saurolophus was being offered alongside a juvenile that was found with it or in close proximation. If I remember correctly he basically had most of one side of the Tarbo, and the duckbills were far more complete, however the prices were akin to complete dinosaurs. (millions, not thousands) His prices were far beyond anything I could even consider, aside from which the entire thing sounded rather......cloak and dagger. He stated he was selling them for a client on commission, however they were still in Mongolia etc. I always wondered how such well preserved and seemingly nice fossils were removed from China or Mongolia without being caught, guess now we know.

Interesting - I presume you work for a museum?  Or are you just an independently wealthy collector 

You remember that just a couple of months ago a US Federal court ordered that a Tarbosaurus skeleton of dubious origin had to be returned to Mongolia, voiding a 3 million dollar auction sale.

OTOH, here in the US there are some private collectors who dig up their own fossils (though I have no clue how many.)  One fellow in Texas has his own private museum, curated by amateur paleontologist "Dino George" Blasing who appears in that Dinosaur vs. Dinosaur History Channel show 5 years ago.  I remember that they excavated a 45-long Anatotitan about 10 years ago on private land.

I'm real torn about this topic because while private collectors increase the number of specimens found, the availability of those for study is limited at best, and many specimens are probably dug up less carefully than those dug up by real paleontologists.

OTOH, the Nanotyrannus and large Ceratopsian "Dueling Dinosaurs" which were dug up by private hunters and which has been studied by Bakker are probably the finest fossil finds ever found in N. America.  I hope they are bought and donated to a museum.  I don't know if any fossils are worth $7 M that they are asking, but if any are, those are IT.

(I hope you are not gonna start a debate over Nanotyrannus now!  )

Our facility was offered that dueling pair--but there is probably no museum anywhere that can or will pay it.  And therein lies the problem--the only people that could afford them are private; but private collections aren't all that accessible for study (as opposed to public trusts, be it museums, universities, etc).  So the Black Hills Institute knows that it has an important specimen; but it can't be studied by or for them until it is in a public, not-for-sale organization.

I like the laws here (Saskatchewan)--fossils are Crown (government) property. They go into the public collection of the provincial museum. They can be accessed and studied by anyone who asks. And there are no exceptions (except petrified wood...).

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I remember being offered the dinosaurs, the Taarbosaurus was incomplete and needed some compositing done, and the Saurolophus was being offered alongside a juvenile that was found with it or in close proximation. If I remember correctly he basically had most of one side of the Tarbo, and the duckbills were far more complete, however the prices were akin to complete dinosaurs. (millions, not thousands) His prices were far beyond anything I could even consider, aside from which the entire thing sounded rather......cloak and dagger. He stated he was selling them for a client on commission, however they were still in Mongolia etc. I always wondered how such well preserved and seemingly nice fossils were removed from China or Mongolia without being caught, guess now we know.

Interesting - I presume you work for a museum?  Or are you just an independently wealthy collector 

You remember that just a couple of months ago a US Federal court ordered that a Tarbosaurus skeleton of dubious origin had to be returned to Mongolia, voiding a 3 million dollar auction sale.

OTOH, here in the US there are some private collectors who dig up their own fossils (though I have no clue how many.)  One fellow in Texas has his own private museum, curated by amateur paleontologist "Dino George" Blasing who appears in that Dinosaur vs. Dinosaur History Channel show 5 years ago.  I remember that they excavated a 45-long Anatotitan about 10 years ago on private land.

I'm real torn about this topic because while private collectors increase the number of specimens found, the availability of those for study is limited at best, and many specimens are probably dug up less carefully than those dug up by real paleontologists.

OTOH, the Nanotyrannus and large Ceratopsian "Dueling Dinosaurs" which were dug up by private hunters and which has been studied by Bakker are probably the finest fossil finds ever found in N. America.  I hope they are bought and donated to a museum.  I don't know if any fossils are worth $7 M that they are asking, but if any are, those are IT.

(I hope you are not gonna start a debate over Nanotyrannus now!  )

Presume is of course the root word, of the term presumptious. I have no affiliation with any museum and I hardly consider myself wealthy, unless you count happiness as a denominator for wealth. The fossils in question were all placed on a web site, with pictures and descriptions. The "dealer" in question spammed emails for many people that had either recently listed or sold fossils on ebay above a certain value, in my case a dinosaur egg. Rather basic really....
   There are many people who own private land and either lease or sell the rights to have a dinosaur removed from their land. In fact the massive bonebed Jack Horner found of hadrosaurs was located on such land. There is no law against removing a fossil on private property, as long as the owner of the land has given consent, so indeed there are many specimens excavated from private property here in the US. This is how much fossil bone used for lapidary work comes to market. Generally the pieces are too small and fractured to be intact or indicate morphology and are termed "float" bone.
   Private collections versus the government monopoly of dinosaur fossils is an ongoing topic that has points on both sides of the debate. Many key discoveries are in fact due to such private collectors finding something that otherwise would have gone uncollected. The monopoly of discovery does not belong to the government . Aside from this, on many federally regulated fossil rich areas, the ability of government resources to harvest the exposed fossil material is lagging far behind the rate they are being destroyed by natural forces. There are many places, like Como Bluff, where the federal government owns the ground in question so removing the dinosaur material is illegal, however you can walk for miles and spot sauropods that are exposed and weathering out from the layers of exposed Mesozoic strata. The government simply lacks the cash resources to collect and remove them all, each one representing a costly and protracted dig, for a specimen either incomplete or of a known species. So they sit and weather and the erosion and wind and rain slowly destroy them.
The flip side is many commercial interests have begun harvesting dinosaur fossils for the resale value. Often they remove the fossil without studying it to determine the how or why to add to scientific knowledge. Some are quite skilled and may even employ fully trained paleontologists, while others use jackhammers and a snatch and grab method that often does more harm and damage to the fossil than leaving it would have. There was an allosaurus found a few years back in the American west, by a group from I believe Sweden. It was in a backwoods area so remote it required them to build a small road to the site to bring in heavy equipment to remove the overburden. This is precisely what they set out to do. Government helicopters noted the activity and quickly moved to prevent the extraction of the dinosaur. They they summoned an American museum to remove the dinosaur. So the debate has two sides and answers are tough for sure.
  A debate over Nanotyrannus? No, I think that is a debate for another thread, if there is a debate to be made.

[SBell]

I think the big problem began with the very high purchase price of Sue--once collectors found out how much that sold for, they decided that every fossil will make them wealthy beyond compare--and hence poaching becomes a viable risk.

And it also means that it becomes harder to convince them to give/donate potentially important material to science.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I think the big problem began with the very high purchase price of Sue--once collectors found out how much that sold for, they decided that every fossil will make them wealthy beyond compare--and hence poaching becomes a viable risk.

And it also means that it becomes harder to convince them to give/donate potentially important material to science.

Quite so, and well stated. The more high profile fossils that sell , the tougher it becomes to discourage private hunters and would be millionaires from becoming would be paleontologists.

[Seijun]

Why don't private collectors just let paleontologists study the specimens in their collection? Or is it a matter of paleontologists not wanting to study fossils that are privately owned? If I found some amazing fossil, I would be begging paleontologists to take a look at it. Wouldn't it also help the resale value of privately owned fossils if they had been professionally studied and written about? 

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Why don't private collectors just let paleontologists study the specimens in their collection? Or is it a matter of paleontologists not wanting to study fossils that are privately owned? If I found some amazing fossil, I would be begging paleontologists to take a look at it. Wouldn't it also help the resale value of privately owned fossils if they had been professionally studied and written about?

The answer is sadly not quite that easy at times. There are many collectors who would allow a paleontologist to examine and study their collections. The problem is, once it is removed from its natural (in-situ) envirnment, you lose half of the useful information the fossil could have told you.Most private collectors fail to collect in such a way there is a grid map of how the fossil was found, what the strata were, and what other factors might have been involved with its behavior, death and subsequent fossilzation that a detailed study could give of the fossil as it is removed.Sadly once the fossil has been exhumed from its natural setting , examining it is similar to reading a single page from an entire novel, with most of the information irretrievably lost.
   Aside from that many private collectors fail to collect the fossil properly, often damaging or ruining it for study. There are horror stories of skulls being removed with jackhammers for instance. Some private collectors are very talented and do a superb job while others botch it badly.
   There is also another factor that comes into play. The federally protected areas that contain massive dinosaur deposits are often targeted by private collectors. The areas are so extensive, patrolling and enforcing the law is not that easy. So they find it simple enough to locate and remove a nice specimen without being caught, but if it is studied by a paleontologist, his first question will be...where did you find this? Most collectors would rather not place themselves in legal hot water, so their finds remain private.

[SBell]

Why don't private collectors just let paleontologists study the specimens in their collection? Or is it a matter of paleontologists not wanting to study fossils that are privately owned? If I found some amazing fossil, I would be begging paleontologists to take a look at it. Wouldn't it also help the resale value of privately owned fossils if they had been professionally studied and written about?

The answer is sadly not quite that easy at times. There are many collectors who would allow a paleontologist to examine and study their collections. The problem is, once it is removed from its natural (in-situ) envirnment, you lose half of the useful information the fossil could have told you.Most private collectors fail to collect in such a way there is a grid map of how the fossil was found, what the strata were, and what other factors might have been involved with its behavior, death and subsequent fossilzation that a detailed study could give of the fossil as it is removed.Sadly once the fossil has been exhumed from its natural setting , examining it is similar to reading a single page from an entire novel, with most of the information irretrievably lost.
   Aside from that many private collectors fail to collect the fossil properly, often damaging or ruining it for study. There are horror stories of skulls being removed with jackhammers for instance. Some private collectors are very talented and do a superb job while others botch it badly.
   There is also another factor that comes into play. The federally protected areas that contain massive dinosaur deposits are often targeted by private collectors. The areas are so extensive, patrolling and enforcing the law is not that easy. So they find it simple enough to locate and remove a nice specimen without being caught, but if it is studied by a paleontologist, his first question will be...where did you find this? Most collectors would rather not place themselves in legal hot water, so their finds remain private.

The other issue is that the fossils are (or could become) for sale--it can be hard enough to track down a specimen that has only been within institutions if they've moved around or been loaned. If something is for sale, the specimen could 'vanish' from the record, and nobody else could study it to replicate measurements, conclusions, etc.  And if why would we try to replicate a result? SCIENCE!

So basically, if a fossil isn't public, it is not available for science.  A one-time viewing or measuring isn't good enough, because someone with an agenda, or crackpot theory, or just not good at their work, or anything else, could say whatever they want, and nobody would be able to say otherwise (which is bad science).

[ZoPteryx]

I wish there was some law that stipulated that any fossil specimen deemed "important" had to be turned over to a public institution for X amount of time before being returned to the owner.  That way casts could be made, noninvasive tests run, and at least some general knowledge could be gleaned.  The owner would be paid some compensation of course.  Maybe the payment could be them professional cleaning and preparing the fossil for them!

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I wish there was some law that stipulated that any fossil specimen deemed "important" had to be turned over to a public institution for X amount of time before being returned to the owner.  That way casts could be made, noninvasive tests run, and at least some general knowledge could be gleaned.  The owner would be paid some compensation of course.  Maybe the payment could be them professional cleaning and preparing the fossil for them!

Interesting comment to make here, actually. If you are not familiar with the story of Scioponyx, you might google that or research it a bit. Rather an interesting story, found by a private collector in Italy. Italian law states all dinosaurs are property of the Country of Italy period. The private collector thought he had found a bird, and went about somewhat "restoring" the fossil to fit his idea of how it should look. If memory serves he added a tail and smothered the fossil in expoxy as well. The net effect if I read it correctly was making a massive mess of the fossil. Then he allowed a scientist to inspect it, and it was quickly recognized as I believe the first dinosaur found in Italy. It is also now considered one of the best theropod fossils ever found. This all being determined after hours upon hours of repair and removal of the various things the collector had done to it. So it becomes a mixed bag....we would likely not have the fossil but for this private collector, although given a little more time it would seem he was on a path that would have damaged the dinosaur badly.

[ZoPteryx]

I wish there was some law that stipulated that any fossil specimen deemed "important" had to be turned over to a public institution for X amount of time before being returned to the owner.  That way casts could be made, noninvasive tests run, and at least some general knowledge could be gleaned.  The owner would be paid some compensation of course.  Maybe the payment could be them professional cleaning and preparing the fossil for them!

Interesting comment to make here, actually. If you are not familiar with the story of Scioponyx, you might google that or research it a bit. Rather an interesting story, found by a private collector in Italy. Italian law states all dinosaurs are property of the Country of Italy period. The private collector thought he had found a bird, and went about somewhat "restoring" the fossil to fit his idea of how it should look. If memory serves he added a tail and smothered the fossil in expoxy as well. The net effect if I read it correctly was making a massive mess of the fossil. Then he allowed a scientist to inspect it, and it was quickly recognized as I believe the first dinosaur found in Italy. It is also now considered one of the best theropod fossils ever found. This all being determined after hours upon hours of repair and removal of the various things the collector had done to it. So it becomes a mixed bag....we would likely not have the fossil but for this private collector, although given a little more time it would seem he was on a path that would have damaged the dinosaur badly.

Thanks for sharing Amarga!   I knew of Scipionyx, but had no idea about it's early, uh, "preparation".

[benedictO]

Admit it – it would be awesome to have a dinosaur skeleton. However, there was a small but curious black market for fossils, replete with fossil smuggling, one of the more instances being the Tyrannosaur incident. More than one near-whole Tarbosaur skeleton along with several other complete dinosaur skeletons, according to CNN, were part of the biggest fossil smuggling bust in living memory. Erik Prokopi, a Florida fossil dealer, may face 17 years in prison for smuggling the bones.

[tyrantqueen]

Admit it – it would be awesome to have a dinosaur skeleton. However, there was a small but curious black market for fossils, replete with fossil smuggling, one of the more instances being the Tyrannosaur incident. More than one near-whole Tarbosaur skeleton along with several other complete dinosaur skeletons, according to CNN, were part of the biggest fossil smuggling bust in living memory. Erik Prokopi, a Florida fossil dealer, may face 17 years in prison for smuggling the bones.

I wouldn't want one. I don't have the space or money for one. Besides, what the heck would I do with it?

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Owning a dinosaur can be very educational and they make excellent conversation pieces. In addition using them as educational tools for various groups can be quite rewarding. In the time I have owned my dinosaur he has served as a model for a sculpter, an educational display at various shows, and even served as a guide for a museum how a psittacosaurus should look if properly mounted.
  In addition mine serves as a speaking voice on facebook for various dinosaur related things I am intertwined with. Size has never been an issue for me. My dinosaur measures 25 inches from the tip of tail to the tip of his beak and stands only 11 inches at the hips. He takes up less space than a large dog.  Like any other dinosaur I own, he sits within his allotted space, and does what any other dinosaur you might own would do.....
As for what to do with him...I study mine alot and sometimes I just sit and look at him. I wonder sometimes what the world was like when he could look out those large empty eyes of his, and it can make one quite philosophical pondering a being that existed 110 million years before I did. I think that more than anything is what I get out of owning a dinosaur...the feeling of .......perspective.