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avatar_sauroid

Finally, You Can See Dinosaurs in All Their Feathered Glory

Started by sauroid, April 06, 2016, 10:58:33 AM

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HD-man

I'm also known as JD-man at deviantART: http://jd-man.deviantart.com/


tyrantqueen

#21
Quote from: suspsy on April 07, 2016, 03:25:27 AM
What exactly is so awful about that Yutyrannus?

The way the integument doesn't conform to the surface of the body. It looks like pieces of straw that have been glued on.

stargatedalek

Actually recent wind tunnel studies have shown that Microraptor was most suited for powered flight. The animal was aerodynamically designed to be most efficient when moving forward at speed, additionally it's morphology is no better adapted for gliding than that of many dinosaurs with far less intricate systems of feathering and wing development. Microraptor simply had more than it needed for gliding, no reason for it to have these if not for powered flight.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/flight-of-the-microraptor/

Dinoguy2

Quote from: stargatedalek on April 07, 2016, 03:40:14 AM
Quote from: Dinoguy2 on April 06, 2016, 11:24:29 PM
It should be noted that at least one Caudipteryx preserves unfeathered fingers with bumpy or scaly skin but in my opinion this is probably due to decomposition of plumaceous feathers on the hand. Though I sincerely doubt a flightless dromaeosaurs would retain a distinct alula!

I think some of the weirdness of the Yutyrsnnus hand is due to the angle. Folded wrists tend to angle backward like that in birds. I'm not sure the hands of a tyrannosauroid could fold that much but I'm not aware of any studies on the topic and cartilage would increase range of motion.
Caudipteryx had some sort of specialization going on with its fingers too, similar to Balaur.

I thought I recalled reading of Alula in Microraptor but I could be wrong. Even though Microraptor was a flying animal the alula is mainly used in balance so it makes sense dromaeosaurs being reliant on balance in their hunting would retain it to some degree.

I just can't see the hand as being on an angle explaining this visual. I'm talking about where the second and third digit connect being so far apart from the inner digit. It might be an illusion if the inner digit is short enough and the other two are overlapping.

Alula has nothing to do with balance. It controls air flow direction over the leading edge of the wing for more precise flight control.
The Carnegie Collection Dinosaur Archive - http://www.dinosaurmountain.net

HD-man

Quote from: stargatedalek on April 07, 2016, 08:46:33 PMActually recent wind tunnel studies have shown that Microraptor was most suited for powered flight. The animal was aerodynamically designed to be most efficient when moving forward at speed, additionally it's morphology is no better adapted for gliding than that of many dinosaurs with far less intricate systems of feathering and wing development. Microraptor simply had more than it needed for gliding, no reason for it to have these if not for powered flight.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/flight-of-the-microraptor/

I've read that article & it doesn't say anything about Microraptor being a true powered flier. In fact, it says more-or-less the same thing as my previous post ("Notably, Microraptor was never an efficient flier: it suffered from extensive drag in all simulations and was aerodynamically unstable, performing best when moving quickly. It was well able to glide no matter what the feather or wing configuration: in fact, we concluded that all Microraptor needed in order to glide effectively was a flat wing surface – feather asymmetry, anatomy and configuration didn't make that much difference...a discovery which supports the view that the evolution of theropod wing and feather anatomy did not occur within an aerodynamic context").
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Dinoguy2

Quote from: HD-man on April 08, 2016, 02:09:26 AM
Quote from: stargatedalek on April 07, 2016, 08:46:33 PMActually recent wind tunnel studies have shown that Microraptor was most suited for powered flight. The animal was aerodynamically designed to be most efficient when moving forward at speed, additionally it's morphology is no better adapted for gliding than that of many dinosaurs with far less intricate systems of feathering and wing development. Microraptor simply had more than it needed for gliding, no reason for it to have these if not for powered flight.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/flight-of-the-microraptor/

I've read that article & it doesn't say anything about Microraptor being a true powered flier. In fact, it says more-or-less the same thing as my previous post ("Notably, Microraptor was never an efficient flier: it suffered from extensive drag in all simulations and was aerodynamically unstable, performing best when moving quickly. It was well able to glide no matter what the feather or wing configuration: in fact, we concluded that all Microraptor needed in order to glide effectively was a flat wing surface – feather asymmetry, anatomy and configuration didn't make that much difference...a discovery which supports the view that the evolution of theropod wing and feather anatomy did not occur within an aerodynamic context").

Yeah, Microraptor is weird since it has all the soft tissue requirements for flight but none of the skeletal/muscular requirements other than very basic things like an ossified sternum. I'm starting to suspect the people who think basal birds flew in a fundamentally different, maybe bat-like manner, and then modern birds flight evolved a bit later. This would go a long way towards explaining Confuciusornis, which skeletally comes out as a glider, which seems pretty crazy given its wing feathers and tiny little legs, and it being found in mass assemblages in the middle of lakes. The big hole in the deltopectoral crest must have anchored some bat-like musculature for a very alien style of flapping flight.

Those Citipati and Velociraptor models do look a whole lot like the ones used in the Fighting Dinosaurs exhibit back when I saw it in 2000 or 2001, but the poses are different, so I'm not sure if they have been updated or just based on the old ones.
The Carnegie Collection Dinosaur Archive - http://www.dinosaurmountain.net

stargatedalek

That summary focuses primarily on posture, but it does show that Microraptor was not efficient as a glider. The legs produce lift and increase agility but only when it's moving forward at speed, which to me suggests behavior similar to birds of prey in deep forests like some kites.

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Dinoguy2

The Carnegie Collection Dinosaur Archive - http://www.dinosaurmountain.net

sauroid

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tyrantqueen


Halichoeres

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Mamasaurus

This looks like a great exhibit! I wish I could go to see it, well, except for that yutyrannus. That thing reminds me of some horrible taxidermy I've seen. Feathers kinda hot-glued on with no flow along the body's contours.

As for the microraptor. Modern hoatzins are not the best of flyers, but they are perfectly suited for their particular niche at the banks of the Amazon river. Perhaps microraptor was great at short bursts of powerful flight, but terrible at prolonged flight. Glider or not, it was very well adapted to whichever niche it was in. That much is obvious from the specialization in its feathers.  If it was inefficient at flying, that doesn't mean it was some half-formed transition between gliders and flyers. It had just what it needed for whichever niche it occupied, and that is good enough  :)  just like mudskippers are perfectly suited for their niche. They are not misfits stuck between two worlds, but have just the skills they need for their little pocket of the world. :)

That said, we may never know exactly how good a flyer or glider microraptor was. There are so many things about behavior that are unbelievable unless we actually witness it (desert elephants anyone? Tree climbing goats?  :P). It's fun to speculate   ^-^


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Stuckasaurus (Dino Dad Reviews)

Quote from: Halichoeres on April 12, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: tyrantqueen on April 12, 2016, 08:10:49 AM
Quote from: sauroid on April 12, 2016, 06:54:23 AM
related story and sharing this for the great illustrations
https://www.audubon.org/news/11-terrifying-dinosaurs-rocked-feathers-better-birds#1

I like Zhao Chuang's artwork here.

Seconded. Really nice.

I love that the Audubon society posted this, and that true birds are included on a list of "Terrifying Dinosaurs".

antorbitalfenestrae

I'm really excited to see this, i'll be in New York state for school and it'll be really easy to hop down to NYC and see this! Anyone know what materials the artist(s) used for the models? It looks almost like painted metal in some of the photos. (And the models are gorgeous... I don't mind the weirdly feathered Yutyrannus, it's nice to see any kind of feathered tyrannosaur!)

Derek.McManus

This looks like an interesting exhibition. Though I think the concept of feathered dinosaurs still has a way to go to displace the green and scaley stereotype in the mind of the general public.

You can support the Dinosaur Toy Forum by making dino-purchases through these links to Ebay and Amazon. Disclaimer: these and other links to Ebay.com and Amazon.com on the Dinosaur Toy Forum are often affiliate links, so when you make purchases through them we may make a commission.