Just finished The Lost World

[JPEngineer]

I just finished the sequel to Jurassic Park and I really, really want to review this book so please bear with me and some of the concepts within it. I found it just as good as Jurassic Park, and loved how it touches on paleoecology.

1. I think that the species chose for the book truly would fit within an ecosystem despite being eons and miles apart from one another in reality. I think this because of the types that were chosen, you had 3 carnivore species. Two were apex predators, which would be needed in that environment. Then you have a ambush predator that could thin the population of the smaller herbivores. The Symbiosis of herding and living together from the Parasaurolophids and Apatosaurs is SO extremely likely. I can verify that from what I see on our farm. Where they would have been living together since birth they would have created an dependence on one another. I see this daily on our farm, we have ducks and chickens they depend on one another. They both also have different food sources as the Dinosaurs in the book do. Thus making it feasible to believe that would work. Then you take into account all of the herbivore species in the book, that each would take from different food sources (in theory of course).
2. Then Naturally reared animals verse human reared. I see a HUGE difference with that. Its unbelievable at the behaviors they embrace when reared naturally versus hand reared. Just as theorized with the raptors in the book.

I think they are both good books, and IMO likely in the future. If the technology to perform the sequencing and extractions existed,(and at the rate technology changes) I believe we truly could see genetically engineered dinosaurs. Probably those species as well, because of their presence in the fossil record.

[Gwangi]

I agree, both books are great and I enjoyed by ecology aspect of "The Lost World" as well. I've actually read both books at least three times that I can remember, I may have to read them again soon.
Now, in regards to cloned dinosaurs. I don't think it is as simple as you make it sound, or as the books make it sound. If you enjoy ecology (and obviously dinosaurs) than I must suggest you read "Dinosaur Odyssey" by Scott Sampson. He touches on just how complex ecology is and why we will never see cloned dinosaurs. Dinosaurs lived in a very different and complex world we just don't fully understand. We barely understand present day ecology. You cannot just engineer a dinosaur and set it loose. You would have to deal with changes in the levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide that have occurred since dinosaur lived. Animals today have difficultly adjusting to the different oxygen levels that exist in the present day, let alone those from millions of years ago. On top of that we don't really know what the dinosaurs ate, the plant life we have today may not be compatible to their digestive systems. If the dinosaurs could eat our extant plant life than what kind of bacteria will break it down in the guts of the herbivorous dinosaur? Elephant calves must ear their parents droppings in order to get this bacteria, where would the dinosaurs get theirs? These are only a few of the issues that would need to be addressed. Ecology is a complex thing, far more complex than sauropods ate plants and theropods ate sauropods. I strongly suggest you read the above mentioned book, I think you'll really enjoy it even if the "Jurassic Park" thing is a bit of a buzz kill.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

A lot of those problems are touched upon in the novels..incompatible food, unknown behavior, ect.

I think the issues with the Raptors are not that they are human reared, those still killed people , but that they had no parents to teach them like the wild ones in Jurassic Park.

Without guidance they became savage and worked against each other as more often than not. All the infighting and such...there was way they would act as real dinosaurs. :/

[Gwangi]

A lot of those problems are touched upon in the novels..incompatible food, unknown behavior, ect.

I haven't read the books in some time but IIRC they managed to provide the dinosaurs with plants they co-existed with but never actually explained how they cloned the plants themselves. My point is, it is far more daunting a task than the books let on and in all likelihood impossible.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

A lot of those problems are touched upon in the novels..incompatible food, unknown behavior, ect.

I haven't read the books in some time but IIRC they managed to provide the dinosaurs with plants they co-existed with but never actually explained how they cloned the plants themselves. My point is, it is far more daunting a task than the books let on and in all likelihood impossible.

They created some plants because they looked good aka prehistoric and artistic...i don't recall they made any for the animals to eat.

Really they might be a bit more stable given that their prehistoric dna is mixed with modern animals.

[ZoPteryx]

You can get "paleo plants" in the Operation Genesis game.  It says they're better for the herbivorous dinos then modern plants.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

You can get "paleo plants" in the Operation Genesis game.  It says they're better for the herbivorous dinos then modern plants.

Yeah but JP:OG isn't a part of the novel universe.

[JPEngineer]

I need to check that Gwangi. I'd love a good paleo ecology book. I don't think they could survive here either, just to many variables. But I do think it will possible to make the animals one day.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I need to check that Gwangi. I'd love a good paleo ecology book. I don't think they could survive here either, just to many variables. But I do think it will possible to make the animals one day.

I think it would be possible to make something similar..like Horner and his chicken-osaurus project. The problem is all we really have are bones to base our models on. That isn't much when it comes to a living creature.   I'd like to see someone pick up the A.I. Dinosaurs again...fully animatronic, moving , breathing, feeding, and interacting with each other and their environments..would be expensive ( not as much as cloning of course ) but just EPIC.

[JPEngineer]

I wonder how that will turn out. I feel unethical saying "make" an animal, seems wrong. But its what would be done for sure.

[Gwangi]

Even if you "made" a chickenosaurus it would still at the end of the day be just a modified chicken and no less or more of a dinosaur than it already was. Chickens are dinosaur enough as it is, all Horner would be doing is making it look more like one in the classic sense. You can't really re-create a dinosaur from a dinosaur.

[DinoLord]

I last read this book around 2 years ago. It was very well-written. It's a shame that they couldn't have included the Carnotaurus in the movies (if I remember correctly, it's even in the TLW arcade game)

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Even if you "made" a chickenosaurus it would still at the end of the day be just a modified chicken and no less or more of a dinosaur than it already was. Chickens are dinosaur enough as it is, all Horner would be doing is making it look more like one in the classic sense. You can't really re-create a dinosaur from a dinosaur.

You can make it look more like a prehistoric dinosaur though..it's basically just reverting it using it's DNA..a method I'm curious Crichton didn't think of himself.

I also missed the Carnotaurus from the novel..I was really looking forward to seeing the chameleon-like ability they had on screen.

[Gwangi]

Even if you "made" a chickenosaurus it would still at the end of the day be just a modified chicken and no less or more of a dinosaur than it already was. Chickens are dinosaur enough as it is, all Horner would be doing is making it look more like one in the classic sense. You can't really re-create a dinosaur from a dinosaur.

You can make it look more like a prehistoric dinosaur though..it's basically just reverting it using it's DNA..a method I'm curious Crichton didn't think of himself.

I also missed the Carnotaurus from the novel..I was really looking forward to seeing the chameleon-like ability they had on screen.

That's all you could do though, make it look like a dinosaur but it would still be and behave like a chicken. That is probably why Crichton didn't go that route, no one is afraid of chickens. Even an Emu engineered to look like a dinosaur wouldn't make for as good a book as cloning the real deal, also they wouldn't be all that frighting.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Even if you "made" a chickenosaurus it would still at the end of the day be just a modified chicken and no less or more of a dinosaur than it already was. Chickens are dinosaur enough as it is, all Horner would be doing is making it look more like one in the classic sense. You can't really re-create a dinosaur from a dinosaur.

You can make it look more like a prehistoric dinosaur though..it's basically just reverting it using it's DNA..a method I'm curious Crichton didn't think of himself.

I also missed the Carnotaurus from the novel..I was really looking forward to seeing the chameleon-like ability they had on screen.

That's all you could do though, make it look like a dinosaur but it would still be and behave like a chicken. That is probably why Crichton didn't go that route, no one is afraid of chickens. Even an Emu engineered to look like a dinosaur wouldn't make for as good a book as cloning the real deal, also they wouldn't be all that frighting.

Behavior could be altered in the book though...by changing the body the mind would have to adapt as well I think.  I have to disagree that birds aren't scary...Hitchcock did a whole film using them after all.   Really many of the Dinos in the novel are dino-frogs and a combination of other things...so are frogs scary ?  You wouldn't think so off-hand either.

[Himmapaan]

Ohoho, I would take heed before even assuming for a second that an emu isn't frightening. It could easily kill you as soon as look at you; just as a cassowary could!

Not that I doubt you fully realised this, Art; I only mean in general terms.

Oh, and do not underestimate chickens either. 

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Ohoho, I would take heed before even assuming for a second that an emu isn't frightening. It could easily kill you as soon as look at you; just as a cassowary could!

Not that I doubt you fully realised this, Art; I only mean in general terms.

Oh, and do not underestimate chickens either. 

Anyone whose ever been on the business end of a rooster's spurs can attest that the prospect is a little frightening...  I recall us having to use a " shield " when we picked up eggs...and on  similar note my grandmother used to tell us horror stories of the geese they had on her farm..she really didn't like them at all.

[Gwangi]

Birds can be formidable and frighting yes but Tyrannosaurus rex they are not.   

EDIT: Blade, "The Birds" was scary because the birds were organized...any species organized would be scary. I would argue that in the vertebrate world birds are the least frighting class overall with the exception of amphibians. And yes, JP used frog DNA to fill in gaps but that was only done as an excuse to make them change sex, aside from that I didn't see anything particularly frog-like about those dinosaurs. I am aware that birds can be dangerous but the majority are small and not life threatening. Those that are large and threatening seldom are implicated in human attacks and there are no living birds that hunt humans aside from the occasional large eagle and small child perhaps.

[JPEngineer]

I agree, it still would be its root animal. But fun to ponder anyway. Somethings that is promising to cloning the Dinosaurs is that 90 % of all DNA is the same, so matching the sequences wouldn't be to big of a challenge. Its just quickly sequencing them and hatching them.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Birds can be formidable and frighting yes but Tyrannosaurus rex they are not.   

EDIT: Blade, "The Birds" was scary because the birds were organized...any species organized would be scary. I would argue that in the vertebrate world birds are the least frighting class overall with the exception of amphibians. And yes, JP used frog DNA to fill in gaps but that was only done as an excuse to make them change sex, aside from that I didn't see anything particularly frog-like about those dinosaurs. I am aware that birds can be dangerous but the majority are small and not life threatening. Those that are large and threatening seldom are implicated in human attacks and there are no living birds that hunt humans aside from the occasional large eagle and small child perhaps.

Maybe not a Rex..but after being kicked by one of the larger flightless birds you might feel like a dromeosaur got a hold of you..lol

There were cases were you could possibly see what was used..the Dilophosaurus had coloration similar to a poison dart frog and also had a venom like a spitting cobra.  The T-Rex and Velociraptors had forked tongues.