PNSO : New for 2023

[Prehistory Resurrection]

Ok...I guess I have to change my mind.
It seems to be a lot of science in the product. For a lipless Rex it has a definitive-vibe.
I'm looking forward to the second part of the review.

This is the part 2 of the review;

[Paleo Flo]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

[SidB]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

[Bread]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

That still doesn't make any sense to me given the fact that their older museum line models had lips with articulated jaws and they worked just fine. The Yangchuanosaurus probably being one of the best working jaws for a lipped model.

[SRF]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

That still doesn't make any sense to me given the fact that their older museum line models had lips with articulated jaws and they worked just fine. The Yangchuanosaurus probably being one of the best working jaws for a lipped model.

It's pure speculation but since the release of their older models, PNSO has changed quite a lot in how their models and the articulated jaws are engineered. They also switched factories, I believe even more than once, so maybe their current manufacturer isn't able to mass produce lipped sculpts without to many of them having issues. While PNSO QC is already criticised, maybe that's a step they aren't willing to take right now?

[TheImmortalEye]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

That still doesn't make any sense to me given the fact that their older museum line models had lips with articulated jaws and they worked just fine. The Yangchuanosaurus probably being one of the best working jaws for a lipped model.

It's pure speculation but since the release of their older models, PNSO has changed quite a lot in how their models and the articulated jaws are engineered. They also switched factories, I believe even more than once, so maybe their current manufacturer isn't able to mass produce lipped sculpts without to many of them having issues. While PNSO QC is already criticised, maybe that's a step they aren't willing to take right now?

i dont wanna imagine worse QC, any wave except the first would feel like ur having a Bootleg on your hand XD

[Bread]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

That still doesn't make any sense to me given the fact that their older museum line models had lips with articulated jaws and they worked just fine. The Yangchuanosaurus probably being one of the best working jaws for a lipped model.

It's pure speculation but since the release of their older models, PNSO has changed quite a lot in how their models and the articulated jaws are engineered. They also switched factories, I believe even more than once, so maybe their current manufacturer isn't able to mass produce lipped sculpts without to many of them having issues. While PNSO QC is already criticised, maybe that's a step they aren't willing to take right now?

Huh? I never knew about the factory change, my apologies.
Still, I'd rather have seen an in hand test model to really show off the issue regarding the lips being inputted causing issues with jaw articulation. Just gives myself and maybe others would agree that PNSO isn't just telling us this to push their agenda for lack of lips.

I also want to add that plenty of artist on instagram implement lips without hindering the articulated jaws, why can't PNSO successfully maintain this?

[Faelrin]

DinosDragons Part 2 has dropped:

I really appreciate the close up comparison between Rebor's Kiss/Tusk and PNSO's new Cameron, and of course the comparison between the Tarbosaurus and Yutyrannus as well. Though I would have liked to see how it sized up alongside their Deinocheirus. PNSO's wins on the integument front (head and other skin), with the exception of the lack of lips (again possibly was in production before the lip paper dropped). I kind of want to wait for Eofauna to drop theirs, as it will also be based on the Sue specimen, and will likely be lipped, but I imagine it could be a long wait still.

As of now if I had to rank the current featherless options, I'd probably rank BotM's first, because of the lips, and fine integument, etc, despite the articulation and seams which could still be a turn off for many. PNSO's I would rank second. The only thing holding it back accuracy wise right now is the lips from what I can tell. Third's would be Rebor's. It has lips, but some of the integument is a bit oversized, etc, but it is still a wonderful figure, and I'm glad to have it (just wish the jaw articulation was better implemented on Kiss. BotM's did it far better, but it also went through extensive tooling to get to that point, which can also be costly).

Eofauna's may come out on top, or tie with BotM's as far as accuracy goes, but we will need to wait and see. Regardless I may like to pick this PNSO figure up eventually, despite the lack of the lips (and also the higher price point), as the rest is quite pleasing to me. I was pleasantly surprised to see my fears about the poor paint apps may have been misplaced (especially considering the high price point, plethora of bonus artwork aside), as at least on his sample it seems fine.

I also agree with others that I would like to see PNSO do an Albertosaurus or Gorgosaurus (even if Safari Ltd did a beautiful take on it last year, complete with lips as well), if not soon, then eventually. They are my only other favorite tyrannosaurs they have not yet done. All their Dinosaur Park hadrosaurs and ceratopsians are lacking a contemporary predator to display alongside with.

[Sim]

@Sim Regarding the Gorgosaurus, I wonder if what @Faras said here: Is actually a rumour or not, they also predicted several PNSO figures in the past.

Saw a leak pic of two unpainted figures...

So one of the figures appeared to be Gorgosaurus, what was the other figure?

[Faras]

@Sim Regarding the Gorgosaurus, I wonder if what @Faras said here: Is actually a rumour or not, they also predicted several PNSO figures in the past.

Saw a leak pic of two unpainted figures...

So one of the figures appeared to be Gorgosaurus, what was the other figure?

Daspletosaurus maybe... similar sizes. Though PNSO might delay those and release something else first, of course.

[Remko]

PNSO has also released a video where Zhao talks about Cameron.

It's also dubbed in English and a very interesting watch. Especially the explanation why they opted for no lips.

[Sim]

@Sim Regarding the Gorgosaurus, I wonder if what @Faras said here: Is actually a rumour or not, they also predicted several PNSO figures in the past.

Saw a leak pic of two unpainted figures...

So one of the figures appeared to be Gorgosaurus, what was the other figure?

Daspletosaurus maybe... similar sizes. Though PNSO might delay those and release something else first, of course.

Thanks Faras!  I look forward to them!

[CARN0TAURUS]

By the way DinosDragons video also addresses the issue of the arms being to far apart, explaining that a lot of muscle mass covers the upper part of the arms. I think that's especially an interesting of this video for @CARN0TAURUS 

@SRF
Thanks SRF, I did watch it and as usual he helped me make up my mind, Cameron will become a member of my collection as soon as I can get him on prime free shipping and with a decent coupon somewhere in the 15-20% range.  Since I will be buying him regardless, I don't see the point of going on further with any more critiques at least not until I have it in hand

[SenSx]

What do you think of the no lips explanation ?

What is the current consensus towards lips and no lips ?
Is there a dominant theory on the matter now ?

[Remko]

I watched part one of the review last night, will watch part two later this evening.

But mind is set, this figure will definately be added to my collection.
Already have an idea for display.

Cameron and Winter Wilson will be confronting my Alamosaurus figure while Andrea guards the nest and younglings.

[CARN0TAURUS]

So I watched the video and I'm now a little redeemd. It seems to be a fine Rex-Reconstruction.

He mentions that it is quite likely that Cameron was in the works before THE PAPER, so lips were not seriously considered , though he did also state that work was attempted with a lipped prototype of some sort, but the results were unsatisfactory.

S @SidB
Sorry but I'm not buying that explanation.  They have been outspoken about their preference for lipless theropods.  The founder of PNSO likes lipless theropods and maybe his research tells him they sell better too.  PNSO has mastered realistic feet posturing and balance.  The engineering these poses on their figures nobody really talks about it but it's so far ahead of anyone else.  Their figures don't suffer from full diaper syndrome (FDS) or ridiculously huge feet.  Now I'm supposed to believe that they don't have the chops to engineer movable jaws with lips?  I just can't believe that, not when David Silva managed to make an entire line of lipped Tyrannosaurs on his first try.

[Remko]

What do you think of the no lips explanation ?

What is the current consensus towards lips and no lips ?
Is there a dominant theory on the matter now ?

Zhao gave two explantions for not having lips.
First: They couldn't make it look good on this figure.
Second: It seems there are some serious doubts as to why Tyrannosaurus / theropods in general wouldn't have had lips, as well as the built of the skull, especially difference in length and with of the upper and lower jaw.

Now, I'm not an expert, but Zhao's explanation sounded convincing to me.

That being said, we always call dinosaurs Archosaurs, but they are reptiles first.
And all reptiles (except turtles) have lips.
Comparing them to extant archosaurs is misleading. Crocodiles have specialised jaws for an aquatic behavior and birds, well, they all have beeks and no teeth.
So we don't have any living archosaurs comparable to dinosaurs.
The best comparison may have been the giant mesoeucrocodylian land crocs that were around in the Eocene like Barinasuchus.

But all living reptiles have covered teeth  with lips.
In my opinion dinosaurs would have had something similar.

[CARN0TAURUS]

What do you think of the no lips explanation ?

What is the current consensus towards lips and no lips ?
Is there a dominant theory on the matter now ?

Zhao gave two explantions for not having lips.
First: They couldn't make it look good on this figure.
Second: It seems there are some serious doubts as to why Tyrannosaurus / theropods in general wouldn't have had lips, as well as the built of the skull, especially difference in length and with of the upper and lower jaw.

Now, I'm not an expert, but Zhao's explanation sounded convincing to me.

That being said, we always call dinosaurs Archosaurs, but they are reptiles first.
And all reptiles (except turtles) have lips.
Comparing them to extant archosaurs is misleading. Crocodiles have specialised jaws for an aquatic behavior and birds, well, they all have beeks and no teeth.
So we don't have any living archosaurs comparable to dinosaurs.
The best comparison may have been the giant mesoeucrocodylian land crocs that were around in the Eocene like Barinasuchus.

But all living reptiles have covered teeth  with lips.
In my opinion dinosaurs would have had something similar.

Bottom line is PNSO likes to produce lipless theropods.  If you want a PNSO theropod you'll have to settle for lipless, that or buy something else.

[Bread]

Bottom line is PNSO likes to produce lipless theropods.  If you want a PNSO theropod you'll have to settle for lipless, that or buy something else.

Yeah, but doesn't that notion cancel itself out? They're lineup is marketed towards scientific models. Lips are not definitive, but with the recent paper and all, wouldn't it be wise to go the lipped route?

[Faelrin]

TL;DR: Thanks to Cullen et al's 2023 paper on Tyrannosaurus lips, many of the points raised in the PNSO video shared above by R @Remko have been contested, and may very well be inaccurate and outdated. The rest is still solid, and shows how diligent PNSO is with their research however, particularly regarding the musculature and skeletal anatomy, and the rest of the integument. Despite the lack of lips, and high price point, I otherwise very much like this figure (pose, coloration, Sue accessory), and hope to get it someday. It was also a much needed upgrade over the 2020 Winter Wilson figure, fixing the issues with the oversized integument, and the teeth slippage.

I don't know when PNSO has sculpted this figure, or when this video was even initially recorded, but it is a shame that many of the points raised about Tyrannosaurus facial integument (lips) could be considered outdated or inaccurate now, thanks to Cullen et al's 2023 paper. The new paper (and also the important supplementary material included alongside it) contests many of the points PNSO raised in this video, such as why a lepidosaur-like (and perhaps more specifically, monitor lizard) lipped condition is the more likely outcome compared to a crocodilian interpretation (such as put forth in Carr et al's 2017 paper ). Another important takeaway within the paper's supplementary material was that the jaw could not fully close in such a position (such as the points raised at approx 5:30 using Qianzhousaurus, based on an older interpretation of the depressions found in the skulls of some theropods including that one). In Tyrannosaurus specifically, it would have to break numerous points of its skull to get into that sort of "crush closed" position. Additionally they compared a Daspletosaurus tooth with an Alligator's tooth and found that the Daspletosaurus tooth must have been kept hydrated as the enamel wasn't as degraded as it was on the Alligator tooth. I highly recommend PNSO reads this paper. Mark Witton (one of the contributors to the paper), has a blog post breaking this down into an easier digestible manner, which aside from the new paper itself, is also worth a read. Of course more data is always needed, and could change our perspective on this subject in the future, and I would have preferred they used a number of tyrannosaur teeth and not one, but the downside is it requires damaging the fossil material to get that inside look.

However despite this controversial issue on lips or not, the rest of the research holds, and I'm very pleased with how this figure looks. It's certainly one of the most accurate on the market (other options are BotM's articulation 1/35 scale figure, Rebor's Kiss/Tusk, and maybe the upcoming Eofauna figure, also based on Sue). Sue is one of my favorite tyrannosaurs, and I appreciate such a sound reconstruction based on it, although I would have liked to see some of its facial injuries incorporated on the figure, as was done with the 2021 Parasaurolophus, which was based on the holotype specimen of P. walkeri. I also really like the pose, coloration, and the fact this comes with an accessory based on Sue's skull, as it was discovered. I wish more of these Museum models came with accessories based on the fossils of these animals (I know the Triceratops is another), and not just PNSO, but other figure companies too.

One more last thing I am curious about is how the integument on the feet of this figure will hold up in the future. The Dueling Dinsoaurs website mentions there is skin on the feet that looks like an emu. It's hard to know more about that in detail without the specimen being uncovered and published upon however. I think what PNSO sculpted based on the data from other theropods is close enough for the meantime though, if not right on the mark, but again time will tell.

Edit: Added links to the above.