Bootlegging and its moral implications

[tyrantqueen]

A few days ago a topic concerning a discontinued model kit was locked because of concerns over copyright violations. As a general rule, re-casting of garage kits is frowned upon here and in the model building hobby as a whole.

But when a company releases a bootleg of a well known company, such as those Schleich bootlegs that were shown off a while back, why are people okay with it? Isn't it the same thing?

I understand that most garage kit sculptors are hobbyists and bootlegging of their original works can hurt their business. Larger companies probably wouldn't suffer as much from bootlegging of their toys. But that doesn't change the fact that it's making money off of another person's work without permission. Essentially, it's theft.

Why are topics concerning toy bootlegging not locked?

And of course, there is the issue of these cheap knock off toys not being safety tested, but that's already been covered in another topic.

I am not trying to start a flame war or point a finger at anyone, but I would like to understand the reasoning behind this apparent double standard. I have I missed something here?

Thanks

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Some model builders of that opinion, others are excited to get a kit that is rare or un-obtainable they've always wanted.  To play devil's advocate here.  If a piece has been sold out or discontinued for a long while then who is it really hurting to get it recast in the end ?  The artist was paid to create the model is most instances, say the company or small business went under.  I would think re-casting is actually a viable option so that a piece continues to exist as well.  Unless it's a matter of value perhaps ? Like the same problem people have with re-issues ? It will de-value their piece.

Actually the recent model topic did involve recasting but it was an effort based on the holder of the license to do it from what I've been told.  The owner of the now defunt company that made it was looking to recast an existing  kit to make it available again as I think the mold was destroyed in an accident.

I think you have a point. It is really a double standard and we ignore it because there is really very to be doe about it.  So many toys are bootlegs or knockoffs of other lines..and even these knockoffs have collecting value.  Perhaps it's the stigma we attach to it.  When we talk about re-casting, it has so much negative connotation behind it...but when we say bootlegs or knockoffs it's negative, but then we also say to ourselves it's just a cheap toy.  So maybe it's the money ?  Model kits are more expensive than a 1.00 bin chinasaur so we place less concern on it.

[Paleogene Pals]

Bootlegging a toy is no different than bootlegging a movie or a song. It is intellectual property. For example, I worked very hard on my dissertation and Master's thesis, but they weren't obviously money-making endeavors. However, if I were to read an article that used my exact words from my research without crediting me, I would be very angry and rightfully so. I wouldn't be financially hurt but still hurt nonetheless. 

[Paleogene Pals]

Actually, something like that did happen to me. I sold a dinosaur kit on ebay and wrote up a very detailed description of that kit and of the animal it was representing. I sold it to a dealer, and then the dealer turned around and resold the kit on ebay. Fine, it was his to with as he wished, but he copied and pasted my write up, word-for-word, on his listing without asking me. I was not happy!  I don't think he ever resold the kit, so karma does work from time to time.

[postsaurischian]

Bootlegging a toy is no different than bootlegging a movie or a song. It is intellectual property. ........

Exactly!

[Gwangi]

I would imagine the difference in this case is that the toy bootlegs are being made by faceless corporations and will exist and continue to be made regardless of our activity and and what we say about them. The locked topic is question was started by an individual who was actively trying to get support to make a copy of a model and in his attempt was directly involving forum members. A bit more close to home. It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

[tyrantqueen]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

[Gwangi]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

I guess it depends on where you draw your own moral lines. To me I don't see a small community of dinosaur toy collectors talking about a bootleg Papo toy as promoting it. Sure, some of us may want and seek it out but the thing has already gone into production and exits in the thousands. Most of the people who buy it won't even know it's a bootleg or what species it is supposed to represent. Out of all the members here maybe 5 or so might end up with one? What fraction is that of the total number of people that thing will sell to? The damage is already done, there is nothing wrong with talking about it or expressing interest in it. Now if our vendors started supplying them in favor of the real model that might be a different issue.

As for these kits, those really are targeted to (and often made by) our small community of dinosaur collectors. To take a model made by someone else and ask the membership to join in on its production without the consent of the original artist is a horse of a different color. In the small world of dinosaur model kits we represent a greater voice than in the unstoppable juggernaut that is bootleg toys.

[SBell]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

There were also the CollectA knockoffs that were shown on this forum. I believe that some were later sold by a member of this forum. CollectA actually put out a public release asking that people not purchase them (in general--I don't think they knew or really cared who in particular was selling them) to protect the integrity of the company and respect the work of the artists involved.

These, however, were not direct copies--they were larger re-sculpts that were pretty much oversized reproductions.

[Gwangi]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

There were also the CollectA knockoffs that were shown on this forum. I believe that some were later sold by a member of this forum. CollectA actually put out a public release asking that people not purchase them (in general--I don't think they knew or really cared who in particular was selling them) to protect the integrity of the company and respect the work of the artists involved.

These, however, were not direct copies--they were larger re-sculpts that were pretty much oversized reproductions.

Similar to some recent Papo models that look a lot like the Sideshow models?

[SBell]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

There were also the CollectA knockoffs that were shown on this forum. I believe that some were later sold by a member of this forum. CollectA actually put out a public release asking that people not purchase them (in general--I don't think they knew or really cared who in particular was selling them) to protect the integrity of the company and respect the work of the artists involved.

These, however, were not direct copies--they were larger re-sculpts that were pretty much oversized reproductions.

Similar to some recent Papo models that look a lot like the Sideshow models?

No, these were basically scaled-up copies, right down to pain details. Papo is more likely excessively faithful in their imitating their inspirations. There has been much said about how most Papo's are based off of the work of someone else (JP was the original, of course, which made them popular in the first place).

And of course, there is this thread here:

http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2004.msg51630#msg51630

And there is also this thread, which has the original post with the Collect Knock offs:

http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1352.msg33987#msg33987

So apparently if the knock offs are of figures from other companies, apparently many collectors find them desirable. Look at how many people have sought out Salvats (possibly the worst offender that actually has a name attached to it).

[Paleogene Pals]

I went that 'homemade for you' website. I took a look at the Deinosuchus vs. Kritosaurus they were offering. Sketchy quality of the knock-off, I'd rather go to Dan's Dinosaur and buy the original.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Bootlegging a toy is no different than bootlegging a movie or a song. It is intellectual property. ........

Exactly!

....... still  : http://homemedia4u.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=72_150

Some of these are created by Shane Foulkes and I'm sure he isn't involved in any way.
I am tempted to buy such beautiful models for those cheap prices, but I won't. If I was Shane I'd hate them for this!

They don't look nearly as good as Shane's originals at any rate.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I would imagine the difference in this case is that the toy bootlegs are being made by faceless corporations and will exist and continue to be made regardless of our activity and and what we say about them. The locked topic is question was started by an individual who was actively trying to get support to make a copy of a model and in his attempt was directly involving forum members. A bit more close to home. It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

I addressed that issue earlier in the thread. That topic wasn't about bootlegging as he had permission from what I understand to ask for support/interest by the owner of the rights to the piece to ask.

[sauroid]

animal toy figure plagiarism has been a tradition among far east manufacturers. long before collecta and papo have been blatantly copied, hong kong (days before mainland China became industrialized) manufacturers copied the brand Britains' zoo/farm animal figures (among other european brands).

[Gwangi]

I would imagine the difference in this case is that the toy bootlegs are being made by faceless corporations and will exist and continue to be made regardless of our activity and and what we say about them. The locked topic is question was started by an individual who was actively trying to get support to make a copy of a model and in his attempt was directly involving forum members. A bit more close to home. It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

I addressed that issue earlier in the thread. That topic wasn't about bootlegging as he had permission from what I understand to ask for support/interest by the owner of the rights to the piece to ask.

Now that, I did not know.

[tyrantqueen]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

There were also the CollectA knockoffs that were shown on this forum. I believe that some were later sold by a member of this forum. CollectA actually put out a public release asking that people not purchase them (in general--I don't think they knew or really cared who in particular was selling them) to protect the integrity of the company and respect the work of the artists involved.

These, however, were not direct copies--they were larger re-sculpts that were pretty much oversized reproductions.

Similar to some recent Papo models that look a lot like the Sideshow models?

That's not bootlegging...some people might not be overly fond of how heavily inspired Woon was by Sideshow, but he was at least sculpting his own work. Bootleggers literally take the toy, put it in a mold, make casts of it, and sell it as their own.

[postsaurischian]

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? .......

True!

That's why I deleted the link I was posting.
I wasn't thinking .
Sorry, Shane. Sorry, Dan.

[Gwangi]

It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

Isn't sharing pictures of and talking about bootlegs promoting them, though? I remember that Papo Allosaurus bootleg that was shown on the forum a while back, and lots of people wanted to own one after seeing photos of it on the forum.

There were also the CollectA knockoffs that were shown on this forum. I believe that some were later sold by a member of this forum. CollectA actually put out a public release asking that people not purchase them (in general--I don't think they knew or really cared who in particular was selling them) to protect the integrity of the company and respect the work of the artists involved.

These, however, were not direct copies--they were larger re-sculpts that were pretty much oversized reproductions.

Similar to some recent Papo models that look a lot like the Sideshow models?

That's not bootlegging...some people might not be overly fond of how heavily inspired Woon was by Sideshow, but he was at least sculpting his own work. Bootleggers literally take the toy, put it in a mold, make casts of it, and sell it as their own.

I didn't say they were bootlegs. I was using them as a point of reference to make a comparison to the CollectA knockoffs that I was not previously aware of.  SBell already pointed out the difference and shared a link providing pictures of the CollectA kockoffs.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I would imagine the difference in this case is that the toy bootlegs are being made by faceless corporations and will exist and continue to be made regardless of our activity and and what we say about them. The locked topic is question was started by an individual who was actively trying to get support to make a copy of a model and in his attempt was directly involving forum members. A bit more close to home. It's one thing to talk about preexisting bootlegs but it is another to lend a hand or gather support in order to make one.

I addressed that issue earlier in the thread. That topic wasn't about bootlegging as he had permission from what I understand to ask for support/interest by the owner of the rights to the piece to ask.

Now that, I did not know.

No worries. Here's what I said :

Actually the recent model topic did involve recasting but it was an effort based on the holder of the license to do it from what I've been told.  The owner of the now defunt company that made it was looking to recast an existing  kit to make it available again as I think the mold was destroyed in an accident.

I said to get us a quote from the license holder and we should be able to open the thread back up.