David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[ZoPteryx]

I think blue coloration is fairly plausible, especially if the species was mainly a small game hunter of forested environments.  When you're so much bigger than your prey, camouflage doesn't matter nearly as much.  Think corvids and other opportunistic birds.  As for the desert dwelling Linheraptor, maybe its coloration is useful for camouflaging against heat haze, or maybe it's just breeding plumage.

[Sim]

I thought David meant that the primaries of the larger raptor series figures would be attached to a part of the second finger...  I'm not sure that would be incorrect for these animals, particularly after seeing how the primaries are preserved on the fossil Zhenyuanlong specimen.  Maybe it would be good to ask David for clarification on this on Kickstarter?

They seem to be attached to the wrist in most of the images, and I believe that was the case when I saw them in person last year. I can ask him though how they're intended to be on the final figures. Here's an example of what I meant in my previous post about the Dromaeosaurus.

Given how the discussion is continuing, I thought it would be good to use this thread to continue this discussion from the Papo 2017 thread : http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5109.msg182739#msg182739

To me it looks like the primaries in the above figure are attaching to the second digit, and not the wrist, comparing the figure to Scott Hartman's Dromaeosaurus skeletal below.  The wrist on the figure appears to be the back part of the hand that connects to the secondaries.  It'll be interesting to hear what David says.

  (image source)

[Faelrin]

Good idea to continue this here. Yeah it will be interesting what is the case. I think maybe my issue is that I'm thinking the primaries should be more on the digit, like the part near the claw as well. Maybe I've been misunderstanding how dromaeosaurid anatomy works? I've only recently learned about this whole primary feather second digit thing in any case.

[Sim]

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about primaries in general in the palaeontology community.  For example, I've seen many people say the primaries should attach to the second finger and leave it at that.  However, my understanding is: While the primaries do indeed start from the second finger, the second and third finger would be mostly connected inside skin in dromaeosaurids, oviraptorosaurs and troodontids/saurornithoidids and in areas where the two fingers are connected the primaries would emerge from the skin by the third finger, and this is how it is in birds.  And a function served by the second and third finger being connected in these pennaraptorans is supporting the primary feathers.  Dinoguy2 talked about it in Reply #508: http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3573.msg138852#msg138852

[Faelrin]

That makes a lot of sense now. That totally reminded me of the important discovery with Anchiornis, since that turned out to be the case with it or something like that. Time to go check that out again, because my memory is already fuzzy on it.

However I'm still confused on one thing though. Would the ends of the digits on dromaeosaurids be able to flex or not? I tried looking at the digits on the Zhenyuanlong fossil, but even then I can't really tell.  I just want to make sure I can understand this thoroughly before possibly doing any reviews, once I receive my figures that I've ordered.

If I seem a bit dense, I apologize. I'm having some brain fog today.

[Minmiminime]

It is a surprising one, very interesting, certainly reinforces their close affinity to birds...I'd like to know the answer! Looking at pictures of the original "fighting dinosaurs" fossil, the outer digits (2&3) of the Velociraptor are straight and very close as if bound in life...but all the pictures I've seen only seem to show the left arm, it is just pictures, there could have been preservational or taphonomic or preparatory factors etc. Curiously, this seems to be a detail that has been overlooked in some replicas of this specimen. We often fail to see the truth for our presumptions!

[Dinoguy2]

That makes a lot of sense now. That totally reminded me of the important discovery with Anchiornis, since that turned out to be the case with it or something like that. Time to go check that out again, because my memory is already fuzzy on it.

However I'm still confused on one thing though. Would the ends of the digits on dromaeosaurids be able to flex or not? I tried looking at the digits on the Zhenyuanlong fossil, but even then I can't really tell.  I just want to make sure I can understand this thoroughly before possibly doing any reviews, once I receive my figures that I've ordered.

If I seem a bit dense, I apologize. I'm having some brain fog today.

New studies of Anchiornis did show the same thing I posted in that thread. The fingers were not separate. But, in most species, the primaries seem to anchor to the first and part of the second digit 2 finger bones. The third phalange did not usually have primaries on it, so it might have retained some flexibility at the knuckle and poked out beyond the wing feathers, depending on how long it is (it's very short in avialans compared to dromaeosaurids). In practical terms, this means that in non-avialans pennaraptorans, the primaries stopped around halfway down the hand and did not go all the way to the claw.

For the record, I think the way David handled this is a necessary compromise. The primary feather piece does starch to the wrist but seems to stick out past where it articulates. If the primaries were glued directly to the hand, they wouldn't be able to fold unless each individual feather articulated separately like in real life. Which would be really complicated/expensive to pull off.

[Sim]

No need to apologise, Faelrin, you haven't said anything that makes you seem dense.

Curiously, this seems to be a detail that has been overlooked in some replicas of this specimen. We often fail to see the truth for our presumptions!

This reminds me of the old Spinosaurus reconstructions that gave it a sort of boxy theropod head, ignoring the bizarre-looking lower jaw that was known for the Spinosaurus holotype!  And also how I've seen extant crocodilian toys from some of the main toy companies that have claws on the fourth and fifth fingers, these are inaccuracies on figures of animals that are still alive today!

New studies of Anchiornis did show the same thing I posted in that thread. The fingers were not separate. But, in most species, the primaries seem to anchor to the first and part of the second digit 2 finger bones. The third phalange did not usually have primaries on it, so it might have retained some flexibility at the knuckle and poked out beyond the wing feathers, depending on how long it is (it's very short in avialans compared to dromaeosaurids). In practical terms, this means that in non-avialans pennaraptorans, the primaries stopped around halfway down the hand and did not go all the way to the claw.

Thanks for posting this, Dinoguy2, this helps with some things I was wondering about.

For the record, I think the way David handled this is a necessary compromise. The primary feather piece does starch to the wrist but seems to stick out past where it articulates. If the primaries were glued directly to the hand, they wouldn't be able to fold unless each individual feather articulated separately like in real life. Which would be really complicated/expensive to pull off.

I'm not fully understanding this part though.  David has said the primary feathers part will plug into the hand part and that these two parts will be glued together.  The primary feathers part appears to be sculpted in such a way that when plugged into the hand part, the primary feathers will rest on the hand/digit in a way that is consistent with what you said about how in non-avialan pennaraptorans the primaries stop around halfway down the hand.

So what I'd like to know is whether:
a. there will only be glue in the slot where the two parts plug together, meaning if one were to lift the primaries part it will come away from the digit/hand until the point where it's glued into the hand.
Or
b. the primaries part will be glued where it makes contact with the digit/hand, meaning if the primaries part were to be lifted it would stay attached to those parts of the digits/hand.

For example, if we imagine the Dromaeosaurus in the image below is a final toy version, if the primaries part is pulled up, would it separate from the hand part where it makes contact with it until the plug-in spot, or would the primaries remain attached to the hand part where they make contact?  I'm going to ask David about this.

[Faelrin]

I got this back as a response from the question I posted on the kickstarter comments:

"the primaries are connected at the hand and not the second digit on the larger raptors due to the fact the primaries are made of a more flexible material and have to plug into the hand to be glued in production. Both the primary and the finger are too thin to allow for a plug-in key, so that is why it plugs into the hand just above the second digit. It is designed however to partially cover the second digit so If you wanted to glue it to the digit you could. The smaller raptors have the primaries sculpted to the hand all in one piece due to having a much simpler design."

That helps clear it up a lot for me, and I hope by posting that here it helps anyone that was curious. So, it sounds like they are as close to being accurate as they can be due to the way they are designed. Also I appreciate the discussion had on this topic. I'm in a better state today and able to process this info better.

[Dinoguy2]

No need to apologise, Faelrin, you haven't said anything that makes you seem dense.

Curiously, this seems to be a detail that has been overlooked in some replicas of this specimen. We often fail to see the truth for our presumptions!

This reminds me of the old Spinosaurus reconstructions that gave it a sort of boxy theropod head, ignoring the bizarre-looking lower jaw that was known for the Spinosaurus holotype!  And also how I've seen extant crocodilian toys from some of the main toy companies that have claws on the fourth and fifth fingers, these are inaccuracies on figures of animals that are still alive today!

New studies of Anchiornis did show the same thing I posted in that thread. The fingers were not separate. But, in most species, the primaries seem to anchor to the first and part of the second digit 2 finger bones. The third phalange did not usually have primaries on it, so it might have retained some flexibility at the knuckle and poked out beyond the wing feathers, depending on how long it is (it's very short in avialans compared to dromaeosaurids). In practical terms, this means that in non-avialans pennaraptorans, the primaries stopped around halfway down the hand and did not go all the way to the claw.

Thanks for posting this, Dinoguy2, this helps with some things I was wondering about.

For the record, I think the way David handled this is a necessary compromise. The primary feather piece does starch to the wrist but seems to stick out past where it articulates. If the primaries were glued directly to the hand, they wouldn't be able to fold unless each individual feather articulated separately like in real life. Which would be really complicated/expensive to pull off.

I'm not fully understanding this part though.  David has said the primary feathers part will plug into the hand part and that these two parts will be glued together.  The primary feathers part appears to be sculpted in such a way that when plugged into the hand part, the primary feathers will rest on the hand/digit in a way that is consistent with what you said about how in non-avialan pennaraptorans the primaries stop around halfway down the hand.

So what I'd like to know is whether:
a. there will only be glue in the slot where the two parts plug together, meaning if one were to lift the primaries part it will come away from the digit/hand until the point where it's glued into the hand.
Or
b. the primaries part will be glued where it makes contact with the digit/hand, meaning if the primaries part were to be lifted it would stay attached to those parts of the digits/hand.

For example, if we imagine the Dromaeosaurus in the image below is a final toy version, if the primaries part is pulled up, would it separate from the hand part where it makes contact with it until the plug-in spot, or would the primaries remain attached to the hand part where they make contact?  I'm going to ask David about this.

I didn't realize the primaries piece was glued down, I assumed it would be mobile. Oh well.

[Sim]

I got this back as a response from the question I posted on the kickstarter comments:

"the primaries are connected at the hand and not the second digit on the larger raptors due to the fact the primaries are made of a more flexible material and have to plug into the hand to be glued in production. Both the primary and the finger are too thin to allow for a plug-in key, so that is why it plugs into the hand just above the second digit. It is designed however to partially cover the second digit so If you wanted to glue it to the digit you could. The smaller raptors have the primaries sculpted to the hand all in one piece due to having a much simpler design."

That helps clear it up a lot for me, and I hope by posting that here it helps anyone that was curious. So, it sounds like they are as close to being accurate as they can be due to the way they are designed. Also I appreciate the discussion had on this topic. I'm in a better state today and able to process this info better.

Actually David's reply left it more unclear to me to just what extent the primaries part will be connected to the hand part.  I wouldn't be surprised if what's making this so confusing is how these animals appear to have often been reconstructed as having the primaries attaching all the way down the digit, instead of stopping around halfway down the hand/digit like on the figures and apparently the real animals too.  So when someone asks if the primaries will be attached to the digit, it might sound like they mean attaching them all along the digit all the way to the claw.  This might also be why it could've looked like the primaries on the figures weren't sculpted to attach to the digits when actually they were (correctly) sculpted to attach to a part of the digits.  Or maybe I'm just too hopeful that the primaries will be glued where they make contact with the hand part so they would remain together like they would on the real animals.  I've asked David about this in the main comments section on Kickstarter.

[Faelrin]

I'm surprised the next kickstarter update has not been shared here yet. This is good information that should be seen by those interested in these figures, or have ordered them. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/2015489

There's lots of interesting info on the FB page as well:
Xenoceratops progress: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1971520156196513/?type=3&theater

Factory Part List thing: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/a.125819777433236.23596.113487525333128/1972628809418981/?type=3&theater

Factory Progress: https://www.facebook.com/BeastSculptKit/photos/pcb.1972640452751150/1972635666084962/?type=3

[Digibasherx]

This came in the mail a few days ago.  Very exciting news and I'm glad any retouches and fixes are getting done.  Patience is a virtue, haha.

[ZoPteryx]

It's great that he's putting so much attention to detail into the final products.  They'll be well worth the wait! 

[Fembrogon]

I admit, I'm getting antsy for these figures now; but it's very good to see the level of care he's still putting into the products.




...But MAN, I WANT these already!!!!

[IrritatorRaji]

I admit, I'm getting antsy for these figures now; but it's very good to see the level of care he's still putting into the products.




...But MAN, I WANT these already!!!!

Same! I appreciate that he's taking the time and effort to ensure we're delivered a quality product but damn I want these figures now 

[Minmiminime]

Exciting news for those of us in Europe (though they do ship abroad, too). ED have got exclusive rights to this line in Europe https://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2017/12/01/everything-dinosaur-gets-exclusive-access-to-beasts-of-the-mesozoic-range.html

I may get those Dromeosaurs, yet..!

[Moodyraptor]

Exciting news for those of us in Europe (though they do ship abroad, too). ED have got exclusive rights to this line in Europe https://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2017/12/01/everything-dinosaur-gets-exclusive-access-to-beasts-of-the-mesozoic-range.html

I may get those Dromeosaurs, yet..!

Heh, wish I had known this before I backed the kickstarter, could have saved myself quite a bit of postage...

[Roselaar]

Great news! I had high hopes ED would stock these and I'm glad they delivered. They can surely count on me to pick up the few items I didn't opt for in the KS campaign via their web store. Thanks, ED!

[Minmiminime]

Exciting news for those of us in Europe (though they do ship abroad, too). ED have got exclusive rights to this line in Europe https://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2017/12/01/everything-dinosaur-gets-exclusive-access-to-beasts-of-the-mesozoic-range.html

I may get those Dromeosaurs, yet..!

Heh, wish I had known this before I backed the kickstarter, could have saved myself quite a bit of postage...

Same!! Never mind. I wonder how long he intends the production of each piece to run, or whether these are effectively surplus? I've never quite got my head around that