Jack Horner and T rex

[andrewsaurus rex]

well i don't see what the big deal is.  She was the age of consent, they had a lot in common and his age is irrelevant.  Her age is the only age that mattered and she was of the age of consent.

If Horner had been 25 at the time would that have been ok?  And if so why?...she was still his grad student.  And if it would not have been ok then, again, Horner's age is irrelevant...the only thing that would have been the issue is the fact she was his grad student. 

I could see it being upsetting to the science community if she was a 19 year old stripper or something.  But as i said they would clearly have a lot in common.  The age difference between them should not matter.  That it does, is society's bigotry and nothing more.

[crazy8wizard]

In this case the legality is not the issue. It's the fact that Horner, as an authority figure over his student and 3 times her age, had created a power imbalance. An age difference that large is not illegal, but it's pushing the limit of what's appropriate for a professor at a university. I can't speak for his ex wife personally, but power dynamics like that are really not something that should be treated as perfectly acceptable just because they happen a lot. They often end poorly.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Ok that's fair but, since it's not illegal there's nothing wrong with it.  I get that some people don't like it but that's their opinion and nothing more.  Lots of things that happen in life dance on the edge of what's legal.  In fact for every law our society has there is behaviour that is just on the other side that is legal.  If the University had a problem with it they could have dealt with it.  To my knowledge they did not.  So that's that.

Besides, i think that concern is a smoke screen for a lot of people.   An excuse they hide behind to hide their prejudice.  For many people, something out of the ordinary is upsetting and age difference between a couple is one of them.  But in truth being critical of age difference in a marriage is no different than being critical of gay marriage or interracial marriage.  Horner's wife was 19.  An adult.  And she is capable of making adult decisions about her life.  That a year earlier she would not have been considered an adult in that circumstance is again, irrelevant. She wasn't 18.  She was 19, an adult and that's that.

People need to butt out of other's personal lives.  Live and let live.  Why is that so hard?

[suspsy]

I couldn't care less about the legality. At 19 years old, the human brain is still far from fully developed and many people that age make decisions that they end up deeply regretting. Any relationship between a 19 year old girl and a 65 year old man is inevitably going to have a major power imbalance, not to mention that it comes off as super creepy. Especially when you factor in the fact that he was her mentor, the person in charge of her chosen profession, someone she felt she needed to impress and please. It reeks of grooming.

Also, shaming anyone simply for being a stripper is a pretty low mentality.

[The Templar of the Past]

Perhaps this conversation is getting a little too delicate for the scope of this forum.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Personally it wouldn't have bothered me had Horner married a 19 year old stripper.  I used that as an example because i know most would consider that 'creepy'.....creepier than marrying a grad student with whom he would obviously have a lot in common, where the motivation might be more than just to bop some hot young thing.

So i guess then, it would be ok for Horner to marry a 64 year old grad student?  No  problems with that?   The same power dynamic exists.  As i said, some people cloak their bigotry, in this case of age difference in a marriage, behind self righteous motives.   But the fact remains, the grad student was an adult in the eyes of the law and able to make her own decisions about her life.  The age difference between them is again, irrelevant.

If people want to petition their politicians and get the law changed such that any relationship between a professor and a student (or grad student) is illegal, REGARDLESS OF AGE, then that's what they should do.  I might even support such a law (i'd have to think about it).  But until then, whether some consider it creepy or not, it is legal and the decision between two consenting adults and other people need to mind their own business.

[SBell]

There ARE rules about relationships between faculty/students in most institutions for a variety of reasons.

There's also often rules about relationships between grad students and undergrads if they are in the same field+especially TA over students in classes).

But there's no rules about it if they're married... so it's a way around those rules. THAT is what was going on.

Legal probably isn't always the best decider of 'ethical'. Society changes.

[Shane]

There ARE rules about relationships between faculty/students in most institutions for a variety of reasons.

There's also often rules about relationships between grad students and undergrads if they are in the same field+especially TA over students in classes).

But there's no rules about it if they're married... so it's a way around those rules. THAT is what was going on.

Legal probably isn't always the best decider of 'ethical'. Society changes.

Was going to say, laws might not exist to address this but the institutions involved almost certainly have rules and ethical guidelines that forbid relationships between faculty and the students they're responsible for. The age disparity is an issue but it's not the only issue. The idea that nobody should have any kind of negative opinion on it because it's technically legal is a weak defense.

[suspsy]

It ought to be pretty obvious that a 64 year old woman is not the same as a 19 year old girl. In many, many regards.

And legality often has little to no bearing on whether things are right or wrong. After all, it was once 100% legal in many places to arrest Blacks for trying to use the same establishments as whites, to turn down women for credit card applications if their husbands weren't there to grant them permission, and to terminate men and women of any ethnicity from their jobs if they happened to be gay. Yet it is pretty obvious now that all of those then legal actions were utterly wrong.

[SidB]

There ARE rules about relationships between faculty/students in most institutions for a variety of reasons.

There's also often rules about relationships between grad students and undergrads if they are in the same field+especially TA over students in classes).

But there's no rules about it if they're married... so it's a way around those rules. THAT is what was going on.

Legal probably isn't always the best decider of 'ethical'. Society changes.

Was going to say, laws might not exist to address this but the institutions involved almost certainly have rules and ethical guidelines that forbid relationships between faculty and the students they're responsible for. The age disparity is an issue but it's not the only issue. The idea that nobody should have any kind of negative opinion on it because it's technically legal is a weak defense.

Good point.

[SBell]

I think to circle back on the original post --there were circumstances that may have had an effect, both personal and professional. And the guy's almost 80 years old! People slow down eventually!

Plus, of course, time in other ways. There are a lot more people doing a lot of work, so there's just so many more people to be aware of.

[andrewsaurus rex]

A lot of good points made above and i don't necessarily disagree with some of them.  What i have been objecting to is the fact that it is just assumed that something untoward was going on.  That these two people could not have had legitimate feelings for each other and wanted to be together.  Age should not be a barrier.....people are supposed to be able to love who they want to love, at least that's the defense for interracial and gay marriage.  Should it not apply to age as well?

If Horner was in the habit of bopping his students in exchange for good grades, or just because he could, that is clearly and absolutely unacceptable.  But to just assume that there was something fishy going on with Horner and the grad student, simply because of the age difference, is stereotyping, without knowing either person or the situation.  I've grown very tired, with the rise of social media, of everyone thinking they have the right to judge the private lives of others.  To sit on high, often in anonymity and pass judgement; to be judge, jury and executioner, in a way, often without knowing all the facts  or simply passing judgement based on their own beliefs, with no regard for the rights of others to think and behave differently.  This is what has motivated me to carry on with this conversation.  Personally, i don't really like Horner, i think he's a bit of a knob.  But this is a case of not liking what he does, but defending his right to do it.

Look.  The bottom line is this.  If people want to criticize Horner's research or theories, great.  I fully support that.  Good science relies on it.  But when people start commenting on his personal life, that is crossing the line and is off limits.

That marriage was between Horner, the University, the grad student and her family....and that's it.  It is nobody else's business and has nothing to do with his work in paleontology....it's just gossip.

[crazy8wizard]

Minimum age of consent laws are kind of like the maximum number of insect parts you're allowed to have in food at a restaurant. There's a legal limit but there's also a limit at when that becomes acceptable. Either way if you have to look it up something wrong is happening and should be addressed.

[Gwangi]

Here are the pictures you requested, The Templar of the Past.






 

[The Templar of the Past]

Here are the pictures you requested, The Templar of the Past.






 

Thanks.

I'm sorry if the conversation escalated this much.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Hey i've got that book!  I would have gotten it about 30 years go roughly.  Don't remember reading it but i probably did.  After Jurassic Park i was into everything dinosaur for quite a while.  It's probably sitting in my storage locker now.

[PumperKrickel]

If Horner was in the habit of bopping his students in exchange for good grades, or just because he could, that is clearly and absolutely unacceptable.

Why is that? As long as they're at least 18 years old, it would be legal and therefore there'd be nothing wrong with it, according to your earlier post.

If people want to criticize Horner's research or theories, great.  I fully support that.  Good science relies on it.  But when people start commenting on his personal life, that is crossing the line and is off limits.

Horner himself has openly talked about this specific aspect of his personal life before, even in interviews. He obviously doesn't consider it off limits or crossing the line.

Age should not be a barrier.....people are supposed to be able to love who they want to love, at least that's the defense for interracial and gay marriage.  Should it not apply to age as well?

This is the exact argument used by people who try to frame pedophilia as just another sexual orientation.

[andrewsaurus rex]

If Horner was in the habit of bopping his students in exchange for good grades, or just because he could, that is clearly and absolutely unacceptable.

Why is that? As long as they're at least 18 years old, it would be legal and therefore there'd be nothing wrong with it, according to your earlier post.

If people want to criticize Horner's research or theories, great.  I fully support that.  Good science relies on it.  But when people start commenting on his personal life, that is crossing the line and is off limits.

Horner himself has openly talked about this specific aspect of his personal life before, even in interviews. He obviously doesn't consider it off limits or crossing the line.

Age should not be a barrier.....people are supposed to be able to love who they want to love, at least that's the defense for interracial and gay marriage.  Should it not apply to age as well?

This is the exact argument used by people who try to frame pedophilia as just another sexual orientation.

sigh.  People will distort any argument to justify their prejudice. 

Point #1.  Clearly having sexual affairs with students in exchange for good grades would be unacceptable, it is a form of bribery and is as wrong as a student offering a professor money in exchange for good grades.  As for the sexual dalliances just because he could part, there is a vast difference between that, morally and marrying someone you truly care about.  I'm sorry that you are unable to see that difference.

Point #2.  Because it's his personal life.  If he choses to comment on in that is his business.  For others to comment on it is gossiping and has nothing to do with his scientific research or theories.

Point #3.  What Horner has done is not even close to pedophilia. Which is illegal and in fact very immoral.  What Horner did is perfectly legal.  It's just that some people think it was wrong, even though it is legal. And that's fine, they are entitled to their opinions but it is their opinions and nothing more, and has nothing to do with the law or University policy. 

Bottom line:  Many people think Horner's marriage was wrong.  And i totally get that.  But when there is no evidence of any impropriety, why not give the guy the benefit of the doubt, stop the gossiping and self righteous condemnation and just focus on the science.  Our society defines what is right and wrong with its laws.  Not everyone agrees with those legal boundaries but that is the nature of democracy and  these legal boundaries are set to cater to the broad spectrum of opinions, not just yours.

This discussion is just going in circles now with those who think Horner was wrong just stating their views over and over and with me stating mine over and over.  So this will be the last post i make on this subject.

[SBell]

It was a love built to last. For four years.

The idea of falling in love with a student implies a non professional relationship to get to that point. That's unethical. That's against the rules of any institution. Period.

From what I can tell, Horner is pretty sure that's why he's no longer with the museum. Which explains the slower research output

[Torvosaurus]

It was a love built to last. For four years.

The idea of falling in love with a student implies a non professional relationship to get to that point. That's unethical. That's against the rules of any institution. Period.

From what I can tell, Horner is pretty sure that's why he's no longer with the museum. Which explains the slower research output

I went out with my genetics prof, after the semester was done. She had acquired her masters and was working on her doctorate and I was a semester shy of graduating and knew I wouldn't have her again. She was 3 or 4 years older than me. We had some good times and then finally decided to go our separate ways.

But that's a long ways from being 50 or 60 years a student's senior and then marrying them. A 19 year old hasn't seen enough of life to understand what she's missing out on.

Torvo