Jack Horner and T rex

[suspsy]

No amount of parroting the word "legal" or pressing the caps lock button or making false equivalencies magically changes the fact that a 65 year old mentor dating and marrying his 19 year old student is simply not okay.

[Stegotyranno420]

I don't think a number determines ones maturity. Legally, maybe, but someone turning 18+ should not, in my opinion, be taken as equal to becoming a fully mature adult.

Even if we assume that they somehow a 19 year old is an adult by this logic, the age gap and the context (unethical) is still extremely concerning. Maybe its just my personal background, beliefs, culture, but I don't understand how some people can normalize such a vast gap. I agree that I am the sort of person who is suspicious of even 5-10+ year differences, but I hope everyone agrees this near 45 gap is far too much.

I didn't want to get involved in this topic but I appreciate those people who called out wrong where there is wrong. Given the nature of the conversation and its controversy, I apologize to the admins if this or other replies go against the forum rules. It's just this issue is somewhat personal to me for I have known people who went through similar situation. This sort of manipulation and even abuse is disgustingly common in our world and I hate to see it normalized.

Again, apologies, my intent is not to keep feeding the fire.

[Loon]

Regardless of intention, there is a demonstrable power imbalance between the two. He was someone with institutionalized power, like a boss or a teacher, she was not. Regardless of age, those relationships are not inherently healthy. Socially and culturally, they may as well have been from different worlds. No relationship built on that is built to last. Sure, they're both adults, but he's done so many things she had never done and, with the world the way it is, may never do. Yeah, she's an adult, but he's one who should have known better.

Also, legality allows and yes, they may have had one common interest. But, you know who else has an interest in paleontology in common with Jack Horner?

[Torvosaurus]

I couldn't care less about the legality. At 19 years old, the human brain is still far from fully developed and many people that age make decisions that they end up deeply regretting. Any relationship between a 19 year old girl and a 65 year old man is inevitably going to have a major power imbalance, not to mention that it comes off as super creepy. Especially when you factor in the fact that he was her mentor, the person in charge of her chosen profession, someone she felt she needed to impress and please. It reeks of grooming.

Also, shaming anyone simply for being a stripper is a pretty low mentality.

Hey, I dated a stripper too! 😀

My life was pretty wild when I was still drinking. 🙄

Torvo

[Takama]

I couldn't care less about the legality. At 19 years old, the human brain is still far from fully developed and many people that age make decisions that they end up deeply regretting. Any relationship between a 19 year old girl and a 65 year old man is inevitably going to have a major power imbalance, not to mention that it comes off as super creepy. Especially when you factor in the fact that he was her mentor, the person in charge of her chosen profession, someone she felt she needed to impress and please. It reeks of grooming.

Also, shaming anyone simply for being a stripper is a pretty low mentality.

Hey, I dated a stripper too! 😀

My life was pretty wild when I was still drinking. 🙄

Torvo

Lets just say, thanks to a friend of mine, who I consider Dear to me.

(We see each other as brother and sister)

I know Stippers from a (now defunct club) and a OF model

And i see no shame in there way of life if they dont see it.

Back on topic



I first learnd about Horners Marrage via a youtube video, and to be frank.. i was shocked. 

[Primeval12]

I'm gonna say I've dated people older than I (not as extreme of an age gap, but not insignificant either). But even coming from that background, the dynamic completely changes when it's his student. He was in a position of power over her and him perusing a relationship with her feels very wrong to me. Also, I feel like a fresh-into-college 19-year-old and a 60-something year old man have vastly different maturity levels. The whole situation gives me the ick, badly.

ALSO, I should add that at even 28, I do not feel the need to date 19-year-olds. The maturity gap is so different, it feels weird. Jack Horner's case feels weirder.

[stargatedalek]

Seems I missed quite a bit...

Going to chime in with the seemingly unpopular opinion and say I don't see a direct issue with that age gap in and of itself. I've been the younger partner in a relationship with a similar age gap in the past. So long as someone is not deliberately and solely seeking out younger or older partners in order to create an unhealthy power dynamic, I'm unbothered. Now, queer relationships do inherently work differently in some ways, power gaps tend to be smaller in same sex couples regardless of age, so take what I say with a grain of salt that I come from a very different context.

The more important problem is that, if I am understanding correctly, she was still his student when they got together? That is entirely unacceptable for a number of reasons. Even if nothing untowards was happening that's still a violation of ethics for the inherent biases it creates. You can't fairly and impartially judge the work of someone close to you, even if you think you can, eventually you'll either be swayed unconsciously, or overcompensate and be unfairly harsh on them. Getting married just to skirt around the rules against dating is not good, reminds me of the JWs and Mormons and such getting married the moment they turn 18 because that's the only way they're ever allowed to be together, just getting married out of opportunity to avoid chastising.

*edit*
If they really cared about the relationship, one or both should have been willing to estrange themselves from the professional dynamic. She should have been assigned to another teacher, simple as that. That she wasn't means they had no intention of going about the situation properly, and seemingly got married just so they could have a fling on school grounds.

*edit edit*
She wasn't his student apparently. Still not good for faculty to date students period, but that's not anywhere near the same level of impropriety.

[andrewsaurus rex]

I know i said i wasn't going to post on this topic again, but Stargatedalek's post made me wonder so i looked it up and Vanessa Weaver was not at any time Jack Horner's student.  So the ethics issue, which i was never really addressing, is not an issue at all.

Interestingly, Vanessa had a boyfriend at the time she became involved with Horner.  She broke up with him so she could date Horner.

Ok that was my last post on this topic...lol.

[JohannesB]

Here are the pictures you requested, The Templar of the Past.






 

Could you cite the pages please?

[Spinokaprogorgon]

ALSO, I should add that at even 28, I do not feel the need to date 19-year-olds. The maturity gap is so different, it feels weird. Jack Horner's case feels weirder.

The biggest age gap I can get behind is 1 year younger than me or 2 years older. No more, no less. But that's just how I like it, and I couldn't say the same about other couples.
Although I think it is pretty creepy to marry someone who is about 4 decades younger than you.

[Crackington]

This thread's been quite de-railed I think, but that's probably on the subject's personal life (Jack Horner, not the Rex!).

Just a couple of thoughts, I work for a major UK university and relationships with any students are strongly discouraged, to the point of prohibition. This applies not just for academics and students on a specific  course, but for any member of staff and students. Not sure if they were at the same university, but he would have some questions to answer if it had been mine.

I also read an article recently from the student's point of view and thought it worth posting here:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/jun/29/madison-griffiths-sweet-nothings-teacher-university-student-relationships-dating-sex-ntwnfb?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[PumperKrickel]

Horner was 4 decades older, he was a teacher in the same institution where she was a student and he was basically a rockstar in the field she was interested in. That's three power imbalances. Of course love can strike at any time and since there's no evidence to suggest otherwise, I'll have to assume that's what happened there.

I can't however imagine a worse way of handling a delicate situation like this. He talks about it like they got married mostly because he was tired of being questioned about the nature of their relationship. His bosses suspected that something inappropriate was going on and to ease that suspicion, they marry? It's a solution a child might think of, not a man in his late 60s.

All that weirdness surrounding his personal life aside, I think the excerpt from his book that Gwangi posted is no less damning. How could any of his theories hold any actual merit, if we can't be certain whether he's being genuine or merely being contrarian for his own amusement?

[The Templar of the Past]

This thread's been quite de-railed I think

Yeah that's my fault for reviving the thread.

My messages were mostly focused on the science which I believe he gets undue flak for, specially considering that other scientists of his generation (such as Gregory S Paul) proposed way more outrageous theories but didn't garner as much criticism. 

As for his personal conduct I do believe is criticizeable but I'm not really confident this is really the place to talk about it and should likely be handled by the relevant authorities (and I'm not referring to law enforcement only) and does not have much relevance on his scientific work (afterall we're talking about the study of extinct reptiles, he's not an ethicist).

Actually his ethics may intersect negatively with his science in the whole "chickenosaurus" affair, but I don't believe I'm sufficiently informed about that to cast proper judgement. 

I think the excerpt from his book that Gwangi posted is no less damning. How could any of his theories hold any actual merit, if we can't be certain whether he's being genuine or merely being contrarian for his own amusement?

That's an interesting point; the main issue is that the theories in question always turn out to be the same couple ones.

Also the fact that it was an excerpt from a 1993 book means that it was there for everyone to read; while in the case of Torosaurus being the same as Triceratops, I'm not sure it was always as evidently wrong as the scavenger "hypothesis", specially in light of the fact that other species he called out as synonyms are likely to be such (Dracorex, Stygymoloch, Anatotitan and Nanotyrannus).

[Gwangi]

Horner was 4 decades older, he was a teacher in the same institution where she was a student and he was basically a rockstar in the field she was interested in. That's three power imbalances. Of course love can strike at any time and since there's no evidence to suggest otherwise, I'll have to assume that's what happened there.

I can't however imagine a worse way of handling a delicate situation like this. He talks about it like they got married mostly because he was tired of being questioned about the nature of their relationship. His bosses suspected that something inappropriate was going on and to ease that suspicion, they marry? It's a solution a child might think of, not a man in his late 60s.

All that weirdness surrounding his personal life aside, I think the excerpt from his book that Gwangi posted is no less damning. How could any of his theories hold any actual merit, if we can't be certain whether he's being genuine or merely being contrarian for his own amusement?

I agree. I remember an entire documentary about T. rex being a scavenger that was centered around Horner. Reading those excerpts all but proves it was just a way to get attention, and he did! Case in point, that documentary. Horner was one of my childhood idols in the 90's. The inspiration for Alan Grant who was featured in every documentary talking about egg mountain and Maiasaura. I don't know when I decided I was sick of him but it was probably around the time of the Chickenosaurus business. I don't hold him in high esteem these days. All of the celebrity paleontologists that I used to admire of that era kind of get under my skin these days, even Bakker.   

218 and 220 are the pages you're looking for @JohannesB.

On the subject of Horner's romantic life, I'm clearly trying to not get involved but it makes my skin crawl. If that makes me some kind of prejudice, I don't care. Reasonable age gaps don't bother me and I fully support the LGBTQ+ community and interracial marriage. 

[The Templar of the Past]

Chikenosaurus business

Could you give me more information regarding the project? You seem more well-read than me in this regard.

[Gwangi]

Chikenosaurus business

Could you give me more information regarding the project? You seem more well-read than me in this regard.

He wrote a book about it that I read titled How to Build a Dinosaur. I wouldn't consider myself well-read on the subject, it was a number of years ago that I read the book. It was basically about editing the genes of a chicken to make it look like a non-avian theropod. I think he did a TED talk about it that you can find on YouTube. It generated a lot of press at the time.

[The Templar of the Past]

What about his motivations for the project?

[crazy8wizard]

It kinda feels like every major gene editing experiment is usually done for clout or to prove a point than anything applicable.
IIRC, the major finding about this was to see if any non-avian dinosaur genes were still in avian DNA and I think they also did experiments that re-created theropod walking. What that can be gleaned from that, I don't really know.

[The Templar of the Past]

It kinda feels like every major gene editing experiment is usually done for clout or to prove a point than anything applicable.
IIRC, the major finding about this was to see if any non-avian dinosaur genes were still in avian DNA and I think they also did experiments that re-created theropod walking. What that can be gleaned from that, I don't really know.

Yeah it feels like it would have even fewer applications than whatever Colossal is doing since those, at least theoretically, are aimed at rewilding.

[andrewsaurus rex]

i think i remember seeing a documentary about that, in the late 90's perhaps?  It was a bit after Jurassic Park came out because it was referenced a few times in the documentary.  The idea was to reactivate dormant genes in animals that were as closely related to dinosaurs as possible and turn them into, kinda sorta dinosaurs.  They felt they could produce birds with teeth, long tails etc.

One comment from a paleontologist, don't remember who, was that while they would not be able to produce an actual dinosaur with this technique, you could get something like an emu-saurus out of it.  Is that the same thing as the chickenosaurus idea?