Apex, The Largest Stegosaurus Fossil Ever Found, Heads to Auction

[andrewsaurus rex]

Would you thank a bully if he helped you up off the floor after beating you up? No amount of sugar-coating can undo the irreparable damage this super-inflation is doing to palaeontology and our natural heritage. Even the 'good' billionaires are causing the problem they're offering to solve. Their apparent acts of philanthropy, if not just lip-service, will surely have strings attached.

Someone who truly wants to see these fossils in a public museum shouldn't buy them as a matter of principle. Maybe the exception is if the private buyer is buying them specifically to donate to a museum - no strings attached. But even such good intentions serve to price public museums out of the market in the first place... and in the long run.

Of course it's better if this fossil, or replicas of it, end up - even temporarily - in a museum. But I feel this is a terrible situation whichever way you cut it and we are desperately looking for vague silver linings.

were it not for the vast amounts of money that dinosaur fossils can fetch, Apex may not have been discovered at all.  The same is true for many other fossil finds.  The lure of a big pay off gets thousands more eyeballs searching for dinosaur fossils.  And it gets people willing to invest their own money and time in the search.  Museums could not possibly afford to fund all the digs.  The 'greed' of fossil hunters gets results we all still benefit from.  It's not ideal for sure but it's a lot better than nothing.

[thomasw100]

Would you thank a bully if he helped you up off the floor after beating you up? No amount of sugar-coating can undo the irreparable damage this super-inflation is doing to palaeontology and our natural heritage. Even the 'good' billionaires are causing the problem they're offering to solve. Their apparent acts of philanthropy, if not just lip-service, will surely have strings attached.

Someone who truly wants to see these fossils in a public museum shouldn't buy them as a matter of principle. Maybe the exception is if the private buyer is buying them specifically to donate to a museum - no strings attached. But even such good intentions serve to price public museums out of the market in the first place... and in the long run.

Of course it's better if this fossil, or replicas of it, end up - even temporarily - in a museum. But I feel this is a terrible situation whichever way you cut it and we are desperately looking for vague silver linings.

were it not for the vast amounts of money that dinosaur fossils can fetch, Apex may not have been discovered at all.  The same is true for many other fossil finds.  The lure of a big pay off gets thousands more eyeballs searching for dinosaur fossils.  And it gets people willing to invest their own money and time in the search.  Museums could not possibly afford to fund all the digs.  The 'greed' of fossil hunters gets results we all still benefit from.  It's not ideal for sure but it's a lot better than nothing.

And it makes thousands of people hunting and digging who have no proper knowledge and experience how to properly excavate fossils. Resulting in so many fossils being excavated in a brutal way that destroys many and damages many more. The same story as for archeological artifacs. The case that comes to mind is the Nebra sky disk, a bronze age depiction of the solar system and the stars. This was excavated by treasure hunters with a metal detector and these incompetent idiots managed to hit and damage this unique piece with their digging hammer of whatever rough tool they used. This case alone is sufficient proof that digging for fossils and archeological artifacts should only be permitted for people that have proper training in every aspect that is required and hold an official license. And such a license system must include a rule that they have to present whatever they find to the local museum for evaluation and then have to offer unique pieces for purchase at a modest price (to recover their costs).

[andrewsaurus rex]

A license system is an excellent idea and i fully support it, though i suspect enforcement would be difficult.   But the fact remains many discoveries are made by treasure hunters that would otherwise never be discovered at all.  And in my view, even half a cake is better than no cake at all.

i'd rather have an Apex in some billionaire's basement than lying undiscovered in the ground forever.

[thomasw100]

A license system is an excellent idea and i fully support it, though i suspect enforcement would be difficult.   But the fact remains many discoveries are made by treasure hunters that would otherwise never be discovered at all.  And in my view, even half a cake is better than no cake at all.

i'd rather have an Apex in some billionaire's basement than lying undiscovered in the ground forever.

And I prefer yet to be discovered fossils in the ground over fossils destroyed and ruined by treasure hunters that do not know what they are doing.

Enforcing a license system would be very easy. Only fossils which are recovered by licensed collectors and evaluated by museum people (and deemed lesser specimens that can be sold) get a certificate which permits to sell them nationally and internationally.

I am not talking about the small stuff found in the hundreds like ammonites, belemnites and the like. I am talking about more serious stuff.

One needs to find a balance between making sure that important and scientifically relevant finds end up in public collections and museums and still making possible that people can collect fossils in the field.

There are cases where laws have been overly strict. For example, the authorities in Germany have issued a ban on collecting for the entire Permian strata in Germany. This goes way too far.

[stargatedalek]

were it not for the vast amounts of money that dinosaur fossils can fetch, Apex may not have been discovered at all.  The same is true for many other fossil finds.  The lure of a big pay off gets thousands more eyeballs searching for dinosaur fossils.  And it gets people willing to invest their own money and time in the search.  Museums could not possibly afford to fund all the digs.  The 'greed' of fossil hunters gets results we all still benefit from.  It's not ideal for sure but it's a lot better than nothing.

Plenty of fossil digs happen up here in Canada where private ownership of noteworthy fossils is forbidden by law.

Personally I care less about damage from amateurs than I do about corporate hunters putting things up for auction or strong-arming institutions with auction as a threat.

[andrewsaurus rex]

thomasw100:  another way of saying 'yet to be discovered' is 'never to be discovered'.  A fossil lying undiscovered in the ground does nobody any good.  Even a damaged fossil, though far from ideal, can yield some information to science.  And treasure hunters are motivated to be careful, as damaging their discovery can cost them millions.

[thomasw100]

thomasw100:  another way of saying 'yet to be discovered' is 'never to be discovered'.  A fossil lying undiscovered in the ground does nobody any good.  Even a damaged fossil, though far from ideal, can yield some information to science.  And treasure hunters are motivated to be careful, as damaging their discovery can cost them millions.

But there is the gold rush effect. This Apex being auctioned for 45 million USD is already in the major news outlets. Many people will take notice of this and some will start digging without the proper knowledge, experience and equipment. I expect this to cause more harm and damage in the near future.

[DinoToyForum]

I'm not convinced the lure of big money is good for palaeontology. Even if we accept the premise that 'more money = more eyeballs = more discoveries' at face value (which I don't, but there's a lot to unpick so maybe some other time) I think the net effect is still negative.

It's not ideal for sure but it's a lot better than nothing.

But the alternative isn't nothing. Even the status-quo (i.e. before super-inflation) isn't nothing.

[andrewsaurus rex]

By 'nothing' i meant that some of the most impactful dinosaur fossils discovered most probably would not have been were it not for the fossil trade.  So it is Apex or nothing.  Stan or nothing.  Big John or nothing, Hector or nothing etc (it's a long list).

I for one am very glad those discoveries have been made and i feel the world is richer for them. I understand that paleontologists want to be able to study in detail each and every one of these finds, and i wish they could as even more would no doubt be learned.  But what we have now is still better than the alternative of far fewer discoveries being made.

Hopefully a more agreeable middle ground can be reached in the future, allowing for a compromise between science and the fossil trade.

[DinoToyForum]

By 'nothing' i meant that some of the most impactful dinosaur fossils discovered most probably would not have been were it not for the fossil trade.  So it is Apex or nothing.  Stan or nothing.  Big John or nothing, Hector or nothing etc (it's a long list).

I for one am very glad those discoveries have been made and i feel the world is richer for them. I understand that paleontologists want to be able to study in detail each and every one of these finds, and i wish they could as even more would no doubt be learned.  But what we have now is still better than the alternative of far fewer discoveries being made.

Hopefully a more agreeable middle ground can be reached in the future, allowing for a compromise between science and the fossil trade.

You're attributing all of those discoveries and more to the lure of money and assuming they wouldn't have been discovered without that lure. I'm not convinced that's true.

[andrewsaurus rex]

Perhaps, but there is no doubt many discoveries are made because of the lure of money.  And regardless, the vast majority of the fossil trade discoveries are made on private land, not public.  I know the laws are different elsewhere, but in the US where a lot of the fossil trade occurs, private land fossils can be sold.  I doubt that will change any time soon.

Money is a powerful motivator for many...the fossil trade is likely to continue for a long time to come, in parts of the world at least.  All i've been saying is that it isn't all bad, as it has silver linings of impressive fossil discoveries.  It's just not ideal.  There are those that push back against the scientific community's objections...they say it is unfair for them to lay claim to every fossil found, whether they found it or not, as though they have the right to it.   So, given the variety of points of view in the real world, all that can be done is to keep pushing for the changes we want to see and in the meantime console with the silver lining that does exist.

[Takama]

Would you thank a bully if he helped you up off the floor after beating you up? No amount of sugar-coating can undo the irreparable damage this super-inflation is doing to palaeontology and our natural heritage. Even the 'good' billionaires are causing the problem they're offering to solve. Their apparent acts of philanthropy, if not just lip-service, will surely have strings attached.

Someone who truly wants to see these fossils in a public museum shouldn't buy them as a matter of principle. Maybe the exception is if the private buyer is buying them specifically to donate to a museum - no strings attached. But even such good intentions serve to price public museums out of the market in the first place... and in the long run.

Of course it's better if this fossil, or replicas of it, end up - even temporarily - in a museum. But I feel this is a terrible situation whichever way you cut it and we are desperately looking for vague silver linings.

This

This right here

Needs to be written in a Book somewhere for ALL TO SEE

Then archived and kept sacred because you hit the Nail on the Head.

All from a actaul Scientist too