Dromaeosaurid facal integument???

[bettashark]

I'll admit that I don't actually know much in regards to paleontology, and I'm not even great at internet research, but I just can't find an answer to this question!
Do we actually have an idea what kind of facial integument Dromaosaurids had, or are we guessing?
Of course, most fossils that actually preserve any soft tissue impressions are from very small species and probably shouldn't be used to make such a broad, sweeping generalization. But I can find detailed descriptions of hand and foot scales, and nothing on faces! Are we looking at scales, bare skin, or what? Do we even know anything?
I sure don't know anything :p

[Faelrin]

The only specimen I can think of, other then perhaps the numerous microraptorines, is Zhenyuanlong, but even then I don't recall it preserving any soft tissues per se, just the feather impressions. I could be wrong though.

Anchiornis (and any relatives I guess) is probably the closest we can go on for now (again other then the microraptorines probably), despite it not being a dromaeosaurid, as there was a specimen with remarkable soft tissue preservation. Here's an older article by Scott Hartman about it that covers the particular areas with tissue preserved: https://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/anchiornissofttissue

Granted that doesn't answer the question of facial integument I believe, but it does help give a starting point for other areas, but perhaps you're aware of this already as it is.

[stargatedalek]

Sinosauropteryx, Archaeopteryx, and Microraptor all display extremely similar facial integument, so it's safe to assume this was the default for coelurosaurs at large. Extrapolate to derived taxa (or those with unusual mouths) at your own risk, but for dromaeosaurs it's a pretty safe bet.

Feathers cover most of the head*, with only the area around the lips exposed. And the lips are covered in what is either soft skin, extremely soft and fine scales, or hardened smooth skin kind of like a beak. These all would have looked essentially identical in life.

*While it may be tempting, and was rather widespread at once point, to give large predatory dromaeosaurs bald heads like vultures, this stemmed from a fundamental misunderstanding of vultures themselves. Vultures have bald heads for thermoregulatory purposes, in conjunction with their thick neck feathers the bald head allows vultures to remain insulated while flying at height and to rapidly release heat after descending to the ground. This prevents them from suffering heat strokes as they rapidly descend from frigid upper air to hot Savannah or tropical rain forest. Vultures having bald heads to better get at innards of a carcass is a well debunked myth, hence we don't see bald crows or gulls because the baldness is not related to scavenging.

[bettashark]

Thanks folks!:)

[Sim]

The front of the snout appears to have been free of feathers, as can be seen in Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus "Dave".

[stargatedalek]

The front of the snout appears to have been free of feathers, as can be seen in Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus "Dave".

I would still call that part of the lips, saying "snout" makes it sound like the whole front portion of the animals head as it is in dogs.

Anywhere that would be covered by a beak in birds, has no feathers. Everywhere else does.

[HD-man]

@bettashark

From here: https://qilong.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/my-friend-dave/

[Sim]

The front of the snout appears to have been free of feathers, as can be seen in Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus "Dave".

I would still call that part of the lips, saying "snout" makes it sound like the whole front portion of the animals head as it is in dogs.

Anywhere that would be covered by a beak in birds, has no feathers. Everywhere else does.

I agree with the last part of what you said.  However, I don't know what you're talking about in the first part.  Dogs only have a hairless nose.  In Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus areas such as upper parts of the upper jaw and lower parts of the lower jaw do not have feathers and these are not part of the lips.


H @HD-man, that guide of Dave doesn't look reliable.  The feathers seem to reach too close to the nose compared to the fossil, for example.

[stargatedalek]

The front of the snout appears to have been free of feathers, as can be seen in Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus "Dave".

I would still call that part of the lips, saying "snout" makes it sound like the whole front portion of the animals head as it is in dogs.

Anywhere that would be covered by a beak in birds, has no feathers. Everywhere else does.

I agree with the last part of what you said.  However, I don't know what you're talking about in the first part.  Dogs only have a hairless nose.  In Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus areas such as upper parts of the upper jaw and lower parts of the lower jaw do not have feathers and these are not part of the lips.


H @HD-man, that guide of Dave doesn't look reliable.  The feathers seem to reach too close to the nose compared to the fossil, for example.

You're the one who started using snout. I said it was a poor choice to refer to dinosaur skulls because we generally use it very specifically to refer to the shape of mammal heads where the jaws and nose stick out separately from the rest of the face. Theropod heads aren't segmented like that, and much of that area is covered by feathers in birds and Microraptor.

[HD-man]

H @HD-man, that guide of Dave doesn't look reliable.  The feathers seem to reach too close to the nose compared to the fossil, for example.

Sorry, but I don't see what you mean. AFAICT, the fossil feathers start right above where the nasal opening ends:

[suspsy]

H @HD-man, that guide of Dave doesn't look reliable.  The feathers seem to reach too close to the nose compared to the fossil, for example.

Sorry, but I don't see what you mean. AFAICT, the fossil feathers start right above where the nasal opening ends:

Sure looks like it, yeah!

[Sim]

You're the one who started using snout. I said it was a poor choice to refer to dinosaur skulls because we generally use it very specifically to refer to the shape of mammal heads where the jaws and nose stick out separately from the rest of the face. Theropod heads aren't segmented like that, and much of that area is covered by feathers in birds and Microraptor.

I know I said snout, I wasn't saying anything about that.  However I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying dogs didn't have hair on the front portion of their head.  I haven't heard of snout being used specifically for mammals.  I've looked at dog skulls and as far as I can see the jaws don't stick out separately from the rest of the face.

Sorry, but I don't see what you mean. AFAICT, the fossil feathers start right above where the nasal opening ends:

Are you referring to the black on the skull bone?


Edit: I forgot that dogs have hairless lips as well.

[Sim]

@stargatedalek, I've been looking up stuff and from what I've seen "snout" is often used for mammals but not exclusively for them and it's okay to use it for other animals too.  Perhaps you missed it but I did say "the front of the snout" in reference to Sinosauropteryx and Sinornithosaurus, so I wasn't referring to the whole front portion of the animal's head.  I'm not seeing how a mammal's head is segmented in a way that is different to a theropod's head.  Also, you said theropod heads aren't segmented like that, but much of that area is covered by feathers in birds and Microraptor.  What area are you talking about then?

H @HD-man, the only thing I can see near the nostril that could be feathers is dark colouration on the bone.  But that dark colouration is also present on other areas including the two frontmost teeth, so I don't think it can be inferred that the dark colour represents feathers.  Even if the dark colour near the nostril did represent feathers, the fossil clearly shows the feathers reducing in height far from the nostril unlike the Dave guide which shows the feathers being the same height up to the nostril.