Re: Feathering proof

[stoneage]

I don't thin we can say that flight developed from the ground up.  Too many dinosaurs are capable of climbing and it appears some were gliders rather then flyers.  Its possible flight was derived in more then one way.

[Gwangi]

I don't thin we can say that flight developed from the ground up.  Too many dinosaurs are capable of climbing and it appears some were gliders rather then flyers.  Its possible flight was derived in more then one way.

I think I agree with that. Clearly animals like Micraptor were going for a trees down approach. Of course this is a line separate from modern birds. I'm sure there were many experiments in flight. I would not be surprised if some dinosaurs (like Velociraptor) were secondarily flightless.

The work that was done on "wing assisted incline running" was pretty interesting.
http://projectfeederwatch.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/research-news-flapping-first-hypothesis-a-new-step-in-the-evolution-of-flight/

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Just to be really clear what I was saying, I have never questioned the feathered oviraptor concept myself. What I was pondering is the idea of wether they would find more quill knobs present with these animals in the brooding fossils, since the knobs seem seldom preserved or found, or if perhaps these dinosaurs also might have had a shared integument similar to kulindradromeus. Oviraptors fascinate me and I think we are just at the edge of really understanding most of them properly. The concept of a beaked oviraptor the size of a tyrannosaurus is for me a rather amazing mental image !! Maybe we will someday find an animal similar for other locations

[Gwangi]

Just to be really clear what I was saying, I have never questioned the feathered oviraptor concept myself. What I was pondering is the idea of wether they would find more quill knobs present with these animals in the brooding fossils, since the knobs seem seldom preserved or found, or if perhaps these dinosaurs also might have had a shared integument similar to kulindradromeus. Oviraptors fascinate me and I think we are just at the edge of really understanding most of them properly. The concept of a beaked oviraptor the size of a tyrannosaurus is for me a rather amazing mental image !! Maybe we will someday find an animal similar for other locations

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification. I would surmise that oviraptors were fully feathered like modern birds. Seems to be the most logical conclusion based on their relationship to birds. I also find oviraptors fascinating, some of my favorite dinosaurs. Gigantoraptor must have been an impressive animal to see.

[Yutyrannus]

Just to be really clear what I was saying, I have never questioned the feathered oviraptor concept myself. What I was pondering is the idea of wether they would find more quill knobs present with these animals in the brooding fossils, since the knobs seem seldom preserved or found, or if perhaps these dinosaurs also might have had a shared integument similar to kulindradromeus. Oviraptors fascinate me and I think we are just at the edge of really understanding most of them properly. The concept of a beaked oviraptor the size of a tyrannosaurus is for me a rather amazing mental image !! Maybe we will someday find an animal similar for other locations

Are you referring to Gigantoraptor or to those footprints from Hell Creek that were thought to belong to giant caenagnathid?

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Just to be really clear what I was saying, I have never questioned the feathered oviraptor concept myself. What I was pondering is the idea of wether they would find more quill knobs present with these animals in the brooding fossils, since the knobs seem seldom preserved or found, or if perhaps these dinosaurs also might have had a shared integument similar to kulindradromeus. Oviraptors fascinate me and I think we are just at the edge of really understanding most of them properly. The concept of a beaked oviraptor the size of a tyrannosaurus is for me a rather amazing mental image !! Maybe we will someday find an animal similar for other locations

I was referring to Gigantaraptor. At one point I made a run at winning an 18 inch egg from one, on Ebay. When the bidding went over my ability to pay by many thousands of dollars I lost out. The entire baby Louie story amazes me, and I wish I had been able to secure an egg myself.
Are you referring to Gigantoraptor or to those footprints from Hell Creek that were thought to belong to giant caenagnathid?

[Dinoguy2]

That point actually segues right into my next comment.....I wonder if a thorough study has been done of the brooding Citipatti's that are so commonly mistaken for Oviraptor in books and magazines. It would seem likely given the criteria that these massive animals would have had quill knobs, given their size . While wandering down that mental path it occurs to me to ask that given the fact that oviraptors are more distant than velociraptors from birds, is it possible that Oviraptors might havge had a shared integument? It would seem a given the underside was feathered to a degree given the brooding specimens we have and I think Gwangi stated once the tail was known to have the phygostyle (spelling?)

Yes, oviraptorosaurs are not as closely related to birds as Velociraptor, you can see their relationships in those cladograms posted by me and HD Man above. Some studies have suggested scansoriopterygids (Scansoriopteryx and Epidexipteryx) might actually be primitive oviraptororsaurs. They are more superficially birdlike in many ways but these are due to convergent evolution (having beaks, short tails and pygostyles). We know this is convergence because the most primitive oviraptorosaurs like Protarchaeopteryx, Incisivosaurus, and Ningyuansaurus do not have beaks or pygostyles and the latter has a long tail. As Gwangi said, we have a few oviraptorosaurs that preserve feathers: Caudipteryx, Similicaudipteryx, and Protarchaeopteryx. Also, the positioning of the brooding Citipati you mention itself is evidence for feathers. The eggs would not be completely covered if the specimen did not have large wings and a quarter of hem would die!

[Seijun]

This is a little off topic, but I suddenly have the urge to see spinosaurus reconstructed with feathers like a cormorant or penguin, lol. Someone on the forum,please make this happen.

When we talk of feathers we are always referring to species believed to be non-aquatic. What if there were feathered aquatic dinosaurs? Just a fun thought.

[Yutyrannus]

This is a little off topic, but I suddenly have the urge to see spinosaurus reconstructed with feathers like a cormorant or penguin, lol. Someone on the forum,please make this happen.

When we talk of feathers we are always referring to species believed to be non-aquatic. What if there were feathered aquatic dinosaurs? Just a fun thought.

I may put some feathers on my drawing of the new Spinosaurus, but I'm not sure.

[EmperorDinobot]

This is a little off topic, but I suddenly have the urge to see spinosaurus reconstructed with feathers like a cormorant or penguin, lol. Someone on the forum,please make this happen.

When we talk of feathers we are always referring to species believed to be non-aquatic. What if there were feathered aquatic dinosaurs? Just a fun thought.

I did mine with protofeathers a few months ago, and thorns! Get it? 'Coz it's the "thorn lizard" rofl... Ok bad joke.

Man it would be a great day to see some more skin samples from abelisaurs and noasaurs. Carnotaurus can't be the only one out there with soft tissue samples in that family.

[stargatedalek]

I made a grebe based feathered spinosaurus a few months ago,  but it was just basic, and I got the skull proportions wrong, so I've been meaning to update it

[Sim]

That cladogram's a bit too technical for my liking (although I understand why others would like it). I prefer the following cladogram for getting the same point across.

Sciurumimus has been classified as a coelurosaur since at least August 2013.  I always though it was a coelurosaur and not a megalosaur since I first saw it, based on how it looks.  So I'm not surprised at the reclassification.  This means all the known feathered theropods are from each of the coelurosaur groups once again!  Interesting! 

[Yutyrannus]

Okay, I'm moving the discussions from the Dinosaur Island thread and the 2015 Hopes and Dreams thread here.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I had hoped I might ask, and I hope I dont step on Gwangi's toes since he started this thread, but I was hoping perhaps people might be able to post pictures of some of these feathered dinosaur finds we keep hearing referenced. I would love to see what the actual fossils look like for Yutyrannus for instance. Or if you have the papers that were done for these finds perhaps?
   I do not ask this to attempt to undermine the validity of these finds, but rather I would love seeing some of them. In the psittacosaurus thread I tend to post any major related find as well as I can, but I have not seen pictures or papers for many of these finds we always hear in reference to the feather discussion.
Again to be very sure, I am not questioning the finds or their feathered nature, I am asking if anyone has pictures of them to post because I think they would be fascinating to see. Anyone?

[Ultimatedinoking]

Ok, I'm here, after everyone yelling at me, I'm here.

[tyrantqueen]

Who yelled at you? Yelling is WHEN YOU WRITE LIKE THIS

[Ultimatedinoking]

Who yelled at you? Yelling is WHEN YOU WRITE LIKE THIS

Ok, maybe not yelling, but I could feel the hostilities from several people.

[HD-man]

Sciurumimus has been classified as a coelurosaur since at least August 2013.  I always though it was a coelurosaur and not a megalosaur since I first saw it, based on how it looks.  So I'm not surprised at the reclassification.  This means all the known feathered theropods are from each of the coelurosaur groups once again!  Interesting! 

That cladogram is from 2012 ( http://fossilhub.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Zelenitsky_etal2012_dino_feathers.pdf ). In any case, I agree w/you about Sciurumimus. I've been convinced that it's a coelurosaur since Cau's blog post about it ( http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.com/2012/07/sciurumimus-albersdoerferi-rauhut-et-al.html&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8 ).

[Newt]

I had hoped I might ask, and I hope I dont step on Gwangi's toes since he started this thread, but I was hoping perhaps people might be able to post pictures of some of these feathered dinosaur finds we keep hearing referenced. I would love to see what the actual fossils look like for Yutyrannus for instance. Or if you have the papers that were done for these finds perhaps?
   I do not ask this to attempt to undermine the validity of these finds, but rather I would love seeing some of them. In the psittacosaurus thread I tend to post any major related find as well as I can, but I have not seen pictures or papers for many of these finds we always hear in reference to the feather discussion.
Again to be very sure, I am not questioning the finds or their feathered nature, I am asking if anyone has pictures of them to post because I think they would be fascinating to see. Anyone?

Kulindadromeus: http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/kulindadromeus-images/
Sciurimimus: http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/sciurumimus/
Archaeoteryx: http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/archaeopteryx-2/
Yutyrannus: http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2012/04/04/the-giant-feathered-tyrannosaur-yutyrannus-huali/

[Gwangi]

Thanks Newt, I was going to share some Archosaur Musings links as well. He always has good high res. photos.

Here is Beipiaosaurus.


Sinornithosaurus