Re-issue of Battat former Museum of Science Boston Series

[sauroid]

@Stegotyranno420 oh i thought you lived in India.

[Pachyrhinosaurus]

It's really awful to see them sitting like this. The Battat dinosaurs are collectively the most scientifically accurate dinosaur toy line ever produced, and while I don't expect much of the general public to fully understand or even care about this, to see such high quality toys just sitting there for $8 a piece and not selling enough to continue the set is really disappointing. Especially since Safari and Schleich can cost much more. As I said before, Battat was revived at just the right time to pick up where Carnegie left off and had they taken advantage of that opportunity I think they would be in a much different place today.

[Sim]

As much as I like Battat, Safari has surpassed them in scientific accuracy.

[Dinoguy2]

It's really awful to see them sitting like this. The Battat dinosaurs are collectively the most scientifically accurate dinosaur toy line ever produced,

This was true in the 90s and early 2000s for sure, but other companies have since surpassed them. The reaction I see to new PNSO and Eofauna releases nowadays reminds me very much of the way Battat was received in the 90s. I was very interested in Battat because of just how much better they were in sculpt and details and accuracy compared to Safari. It's a testament to the quality of Battat that they remained as desirable and legendary as they did even as Safari matched and possibly surpassed them in the 2010s.

But time marches on, and Battat is now transitioning into a nostalgia brand like Carnegie or Marx. To give you an example, one Battat I always regretted not getting was the Pachycephalosaurs. I saw it on eBay recently for a good price but decided to pass. It's a very nice little figure and in terms of accuracy blows away anything made before it, and remained the best Pachycephalosaurs for decades. But now I have the PNSO version so... 🤷

If I was all in on collecting Battat I'd still get it. But knowing there are some figures I will never be able to afford makes trying to be a completist pretty pointless.

[SidB]

As much as I like Battat, Safari has surpassed them in scientific accuracy.

True for I also, on both counts.

[SidB]

It's really awful to see them sitting like this. The Battat dinosaurs are collectively the most scientifically accurate dinosaur toy line ever produced,

This was true in the 90s and early 2000s for sure, but other companies have since surpassed them. The reaction I see to new PNSO and Eofauna releases nowadays reminds me very much of the way Battat was received in the 90s. I was very interested in Battat because of just how much better they were in sculpt and details and accuracy compared to Safari. It's a testament to the quality of Battat that they remained as desirable and legendary as they did even as Safari matched and possibly surpassed them in the 2010s.

But time marches on, and Battat is now transitioning into a nostalgia brand like Carnegie or Marx. To give you an example, one Battat I always regretted not getting was the Pachycephalosaurs. I saw it on eBay recently for a good price but decided to pass. It's a very nice little figure and in terms of accuracy blows away anything made before it, and remained the best Pachycephalosaurs for decades. But now I have the PNSO version so... 🤷

If I was all in on collecting Battat I'd still get it. But knowing there are some figures I will never be able to afford makes trying to be a completely pretty pointless.

Which might be another way of saying that Battat had a chance during and for some time after 2014 to make their move, but they missed the boat, I'd say. An aggressive campaign to promote (including internationally, @Flaffy ) their line by completing the re-issues and finishing the remainder of Dan's new sculpts might have established them as a force with which to be reackoned. But that time has passed. Of course, his death would have required a new approach regardless, so perhaps there was a certain inevitability to the events as they were.

[Stegotyranno420]

@Stegotyranno420 oh i thought you lived in India.

I am North West Indian, but I live in California.

[Pachyrhinosaurus]

S @SidB That's more or less what I had meant. Wild Safari has since stepped up after the fall of the Carnegie to take their place, and has surpassed Battat in accuracy thanks to Doug Watson putting so much into making sure all of his sculpts are accurate and up-to-date.

[stargatedalek]

Targets failed foray into Canada should probably hold some of the blame too, they were banking pretty heavily on that and then bailed when it failed to get immediate results. That was a hectic year for Target, and a horrible time to be an exclusive to that of all stores.

[Faelrin]

I am very surprised to see stores carrying any of these, unless its leftover old stock moved from Target.

There were so many factors for how poorly these have been handled over the years. A lot of the blame is related to them being Target exclusive, the timing and release of JW possibly didn't help (even if Hasbro's offerings got a lot of flack and suffered from poor distribution), and the lack of any international market support (although I know Everything Dinosaur had these, but I think only them?) has likely hurt their sales too. A lot of that just seems the general disinterest in appealing to the collector market as well, who was probably the primary audience interested in their line's revival to begin with. This really took hold and became evident after Dan's passing.

I think the lack of continued innovation has hurt them as well, and while I understand some of that is directly related to Dan's passing, it's also been years. They could have hired a new sculptor in that time, etc. I think his family was even open to them using the sculpts he managed to finish before his passing as well?

Safari Ltd has definitely over taken them in turns of accuracy (and detail as well) but a lot of that is owed to Doug Watson, and give or take some of the mystery sculptors they've had here and there that have had quality up to date offerings put out. I'm kind of seeing a parallel with Papo and brands like Rebor, Vitae, Nanmu, and perhaps PNSO as well, etc, which has been discussed before. Again it is a real shame, as they could have potentially rivaled them in a way not really seen until now perhaps. I think as D @Dinoguy2 put it, both are probably becoming nostalgia brands at this point. At least they had a good run when it lasted. Edit: Come to think of it, I do wonder and worry what will happen with Safari Ltd a few years from now that PNSO is a big game player with their aggressive onslaught of releases. Additionally being hurt by covid is not a good sign either. At least some stores carry Safari Ltd products on their shelves, and at least here in the US, PNSO still seems to be online only (although that's a big portion of the market these days and only going to get bigger as time goes on I think).

There is still some shining exceptions though. Over a decade later they still have the best Maiasaura and Ouranosaurus that have been on the market. Maybe their Edmontonia as well. At least until someone steps up the plate. I'm also curious as to how Maiasaura has faded into obscurity of sorts as of late (other then being featured in JWE, but I don't think it was a fan favorite by any means). A shame its failed to stay relevant, unlike Parasaurolophus, and perhaps even Edmontosaurus, despite it being part of one of the most revolutionary finds for dinosaurs in general, especially at the time it was discovered. It's also sad that never of those were re-released either, and this many years later I doubt they will because they aren't theropods that can be butchered to have glowing eyes and cheap electronics and exposed screw holes (yes, I'm still salty).

[Gwangi]

Edit: Come to think of it, I do wonder and worry what will happen with Safari Ltd a few years from now that PNSO is a big game player with their aggressive onslaught of releases. Additionally being hurt by covid is not a good sign either. At least some stores carry Safari Ltd products on their shelves, and at least here in the US, PNSO still seems to be online only (although that's a big portion of the market these days and only going to get bigger as time goes on I think).

I was initially a little worried about Safari due to competition from PNSO but I don't think they quite occupy the same niche, at least not anymore it seems. PNSO has been steadily upping the price on their products to the point where they're kind of in a different price bracket now. I think Safari will also continue to have more appeal with children. Let's face it, parents aren't likely to buy PNSO toys for their kids, no matter who they're marketed to. I for one will continue to collect Safari, which still offers the best bang for your buck, generally speaking.

There is still some shining exceptions though. Over a decade later they still have the best Maiasaura and Ouranosaurus that have been on the market. Maybe their Edmontonia as well. At least until someone steps up the plate. I'm also curious as to how Maiasaura has faded into obscurity of sorts as of late (other then being featured in JWE, but I don't think it was a fan favorite by any means).

The Maiasaura is one of my personal favorites in JWE.

[suspsy]

I would allow my four year old son to play with almost any Safari dinosaur, but I wouldn't get him any PNSO ones. They're too expensive and too pointy. And while PNSO products can only be bought online for the most part, Safari products can be found in many retail stores and museum gift shops. I wouldn't be concerned about their well-being.

On that note, I wonder if they'll start revealing 2022 products next month. And I really hope they ditch the lame guessing games in favour of just revealing stuff upfront.

[SidB]

@Gwangi , that sort of places me in your demographic, so to speak, I collect both PNSO and Safari (from the beginnings of both lines), and now, not much else, with the odd exception. Safari does occupy a different niche, for me, but I don't really relegate it to a cheaper status, just less expensive and with a different look. My beloved Battats have gone into storage. Never thought that I'd see the day. No plans to dispense with them, though - they are simply too laden with value and sentiment.

[FlawedCoil82]

I think another mistake Battat made was in which dinosaurs they chose to rerelease. As a whole, most of the dinosaurs are not "household names". Tyrannosaurus and Stegosaurus, sure, but those are also the only ones that seemed to sell out. The Meijer stores I went to didn't have those two long, but the others were all shelf warmers. Despite the Hellbent determination to make Pachyrhinosaurus (and now Sinoceratops) "the new Triceratops" a thing, kids simply aren't having it. I know if I would have gotten one of those two figures as a kid, my immediate thought would have been "Why does this Triceratops look so strange, have no horns and why did they change his name?! This is garbage" and never looked at it again. 

Even now, I get highly irritated at the Jurassic Park/World franchise in their blatant agenda to avoid showing or featuring Triceratops in their films and tv shows (same with Walking With Dinosaurs). We have seen FAR more of Sinoceratops and Pachyrhinosaurus using modern CGI technology, than we have Triceratops. As a Trike loyalist, it drives me crazy how the people behind these franchises VERY deliberately go well out of their way to feature/promote much lesser relatives to Triceratops, rather than allow the undisputed "king of the Ceratopsians" a chance to shine with modern graphics in a well known/popular franchise.   

The vast majority of the Terra dinosaurs were dinosaurs that most kids never heard of before nor had a reason to care about. ALWAYS feature and show respect to the established dinosaurs in ANY dinosaur line first before moving onto lesser dinosaurs that really only interest the more scientific people or the collectors who "have to collect them all".

[PhilSauria]

Agree with your comments there in regard to Triceratops!

Although my primary focus is Sauropods I'd consider myself a 'Trike Loyalist' as well, after Sauropods the second highest tally of species that I have is Ceratopsians with about half of those being examples of Triceratops. I'd love to have the Battat Triceratops and it is a constant source of frustration that it was never part of the re-issue, only turning up rarely on the re-sale listings and when it does it's listed at crazy prices that I can neither afford or am willing to pay.

One of the first three Dinosaur figures I ever owned as a kid was a Triceratops and it was always my favorite. No idea who made it as it is long gone.

[Dinoguy2]

It's really awful to see them sitting like this. The Battat dinosaurs are collectively the most scientifically accurate dinosaur toy line ever produced,

This was true in the 90s and early 2000s for sure, but other companies have since surpassed them. The reaction I see to new PNSO and Eofauna releases nowadays reminds me very much of the way Battat was received in the 90s. I was very interested in Battat because of just how much better they were in sculpt and details and accuracy compared to Safari. It's a testament to the quality of Battat that they remained as desirable and legendary as they did even as Safari matched and possibly surpassed them in the 2010s.

But time marches on, and Battat is now transitioning into a nostalgia brand like Carnegie or Marx. To give you an example, one Battat I always regretted not getting was the Pachycephalosaurs. I saw it on eBay recently for a good price but decided to pass. It's a very nice little figure and in terms of accuracy blows away anything made before it, and remained the best Pachycephalosaurs for decades. But now I have the PNSO version so... 🤷

If I was all in on collecting Battat I'd still get it. But knowing there are some figures I will never be able to afford makes trying to be a completely pretty pointless.

Which might be another way of saying that Battat had a chance during and for some time after 2014 to make their move, but they missed the boat, I'd say. An aggressive campaign to promote (including internationally, @Flaffy ) their line by completing the re-issues and finishing the remainder of Dan's new sculpts might have established them as a force with which to be reackoned. But that time has passed. Of course, his death would have required a new approach regardless, so perhaps there was a certain inevitability to the events as they were.

Yes, good point. I would probably be all in on Battat today if I had been able to get the Diplodocus at Target. I understand why they didn't do that though (shelf space if everything at that kind of store), and you can't really blame Battat if the stuff didn't sell well. Yes, they missed an opportunity to hook me in as a collector, but if the line is a failure it doesn't do them any good either way. They get no benefits from me completing my collection on eBay.

So why did the line fail? Easy. They were simply unable to attract kids (or really, parents who buy toys for kids, which would be their target audience). Coinciding with Jurassic World probably hurt more than helped. The original JP had a marketing problem because they had to differentiate their toys from all the other dinosaur toys on the market. But nowadays, if a young kid likes dinosaurs they probably mainly like JW, and if it's not a Mattel figure a gift-giver or parent will look at it as an off-brand JW product when the kid would prefer the one in the style of their other toys and with action features. It's no coincidence that Battat repurposed Terra as an action figure brand.

[SidB]

Yes, that makes the re-purposing thing quite sensible. We hated what Battat did to Dan's creations, but the action-toy move does make sense in this context.

But, from our perspective, the enduring interest in this specific tread is very interesting - it speaks of the enduring fascination with the classic Battat line, an interest that just doesn't seem to go away. I suppose that it's a bit inscrutable for younger or more recent members, but for those who have been around longer, the Battats continue to be significant.

[Gwangi]

@Gwangi , that sort of places me in your demographic, so to spea., I collect both PNSO and Safari (from the beginnings of both lines), and now, not much else, with the odd exception. Safari does occupy a different niche, for me, but I don't really relegate it to a cheaper status, just less expensive and with a different look. My beloved Battats have gone into storage. Never thought that I'd see the day. No plans to dispense with them, though - they are simply too laden with value and sentiment.

Yup, Safari and PNSO are about it for me when it comes to modern, accurate dinosaur toys. I don't even collect much CollectA and when I do it's usually one of their non-dinosaurs, like the Edaphosaurus and the recent cephalopods. And I've slowly been packing away the few Battat toys that I own. A few still have a place in my cabinet but probably not long term. Some, like the Tyrannosaurus, will likely always have a place on the shelf. And the Battat Diplodocus is still one of my most coveted figures. There are a lot of Battats I would still love to own, but I'm not going to go broke over them.

Interesting side-conversation going on about Triceratops. I've personally enjoyed seeing other genera get some attention. But I also count Pachyrhinosaurus and Nasutoceratops among my favorite ceratopsians. It is odd that Triceratops seems to have fallen out of favor, it's also odd that Styracosaurus never really caught on as much as it should have. Speaking of which, the Battat Triceratops and Styracosaurus are still some of my favorite figures of those animals.

[Sim]

Despite the Hellbent determination to make Pachyrhinosaurus (and now Sinoceratops) "the new Triceratops" a thing, kids simply aren't having it. I know if I would have gotten one of those two figures as a kid, my immediate thought would have been "Why does this Triceratops look so strange, have no horns and why did they change his name?! This is garbage" and never looked at it again. 

I imagine kids would tend to be able to tell a Pachyrhinosaurus or Sinoceratops was another dinosaur and not a strange Triceratops with "no horns" and a name change.

Even now, I get highly irritated at the Jurassic Park/World franchise in their blatant agenda to avoid showing or featuring Triceratops in their films and tv shows (same with Walking With Dinosaurs). We have seen FAR more of Sinoceratops and Pachyrhinosaurus using modern CGI technology, than we have Triceratops. As a Trike loyalist, it drives me crazy how the people behind these franchises VERY deliberately go well out of their way to feature/promote much lesser relatives to Triceratops, rather than allow the undisputed "king of the Ceratopsians" a chance to shine with modern graphics in a well known/popular franchise.   

Parts of the Walking With Dinosaurs movie wouldn't have worked with Triceratops as they required a ceratopsian with holes in its frill.  As for JW:Fallen Kingdom, maybe they wanted something that looked more new and exciting than Triceratops which according to the tastes of the staff resulted in a deformed Pachyrhinosaurus with visible holes in its frill that later had its name changed to Sinoceratops due to fan demand.

The vast majority of the Terra dinosaurs were dinosaurs that most kids never heard of before nor had a reason to care about. ALWAYS feature and show respect to the established dinosaurs in ANY dinosaur line first before moving onto lesser dinosaurs that really only interest the more scientific people or the collectors who "have to collect them all".

Dinosaurs only become established by being featured.  Going back to what you were saying earlier, maybe other ceratopsians being featured is resulting in Triceratops becoming less established.  Being established isn't always for the best though.  Some of the more established dinosaurs aren't well known from fossils and their fame comes from a relative, e.g. Brachiosaurus from Giraffatitan.

[FlawedCoil82]

I imagine kids would tend to be able to tell a Pachyrhinosaurus or Sinoceratops was another dinosaur and not a strange Triceratops with "no horns" and a name change.

When I was turning 6, I asked my parents to get me one of those brown Imperial Triceratops figures they sold at Toys R Us. I was bummed out when I opened it on my birthday to see it was Styracosaurus instead of Triceratops. I even remember my mom saying "You asked for Triceratops and said it had horns". Also, about 4 months ago, I was holding up some of my nephew's animal figures and asking him to name them. When I held up his rhino, he said "Triceratops". So it is certainly possible for young children (and even some clueless adults) to confuse them.

Parts of the Walking With Dinosaurs movie wouldn't have worked with Triceratops as they required a ceratopsian with holes in its frill.  As for JW:Fallen Kingdom, maybe they wanted something that looked more new and exciting than Triceratops which according to the tastes of the staff resulted in a deformed Pachyrhinosaurus with visible holes in its frill that later had its name changed to Sinoceratops due to fan demand.

OK, I will give you that one on the frill part with Walking With Dinosaurs. That wouldn't have worked with a Triceratops.
But the Jurassic Park/World constantly screwing Triceratops over is another matter.

In the first JP film, he was sick and dying.
In the second JP film, he was on screen for all of 8 seconds.
In the third JP film he was only mentioned and very briefly shown from above in a plane.
In the fourth JW film he was in the herd and shown for about 6 seconds.
In the fifth JW film he, yet again, was shown for a brief few seconds. I can already presume that JW 3 will be no different and will once again crap on/avoid one of the most beloved dinosaurs.

Already in "Camp Cretaceous", they act like Triceratops no longer exists on the entire island and instead has been completely replaced by Sinoceratops. It's extremely frustrating because I can not figure out why they utterly refuse to give Trike a worthy showing in their whole franchise (except the toys or books/calendars).

Dinosaurs only become established by being featured.  Going back to what you were saying earlier, maybe other ceratopsians being featured is resulting in Triceratops becoming less established.  Being established isn't always for the best though.  Some of the more established dinosaurs aren't well known from fossils and their fame comes from a relative, e.g. Brachiosaurus from Giraffatitan.

I am not opposed to newer dinosaurs being featured in programs or having new figures made. My main request is that they not be forced in at the expense of the more beloved dinosaurs. I believe there is more than enough room for both. Between "Walking With Dinosaurs", "Jurassic Park/World" and virtually every Discovery Channel special where it seems to be mandated that Trike always be shown getting quickly/effortlessly defeated by TRex without giving TRex so much as a scratch, that they really seem to be working together to tear down Triceratops in the mainstream viewpoint to replace him with other Ceratopsians (and, to my knowledge unless something changed, I thought Triceratops was one of the most well established specimens in the fossil record with numerous complete skulls and such)?!