David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[Dinoguy2]

I don't think the 2017 Wild Safari Velociraptor and Microraptor are more accurate or better than the Beasts of the Mesozoic versions.  I think these Velo and Micro from both Safari and BotM are by far the best toy representations of these dromaeosaurids in terms of looking like the animals when they were alive.  I think they are all very good figures, and I don't think any is entirely better than the other.  Going by photos of these figures, these are my opinions...:


Velociraptor

- I think the wing feathers are better on the Safari figure than the BotM figure, since they are bigger.  Are they big enough for Velociraptor though?  As mentioned earlier, Velociraptor has quill knobs, and dromaeosaurid feather impressions show their wings could get very big.  I think the available evidence is showing clearly that Velociraptor most likely had larger wing feathers than the 2017 Safari figure.  I think the wings of Velociraptor probably looked similar to the wings of Zhenyuanlong.

- Mark Witton has written this excellent blog post about how likely it might be that a prehistoric animal had exposed teeth when the mouth was closed: http://markwitton-com.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/exposed-teeth-in-dinosaurs-sabre-tooths.html  The Safari Velociraptor looks like it doesn't have lips, so it would have exposed teeth when the mouth is closed.  I don't think this is plausible for Velociraptor.  The BotM Velociraptor will have lips, which allow its teeth to be covered when the mouth is closed, so I think this is one area where it's better than the Safari figure.


Microraptor

- I think the feathering on the back half of the head, the neck and the body is better and more convincing on the Safari figure than the BotM figure, due to being greater in extent.

- Microraptor was a small animal that lived in a rather cold climate.  Its forelimbs were adapted for flight with very long primary feathers attaching to its second fingers, and alula feathers attaching to its first fingers.  Why then would the rest of Microraptor's fingers be bare like on the Safari figure?  In the paper about mummified Cretaceous bird wings found in amber, it was shown the clawed finger of one of the birds is covered in feathers even where it's bare on the Safari Microraptor, as seen in photo c here: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms12089/figures/3
I don't find it convincing that in life Microraptor's fingers were bare like on the Safari figure.  The BotM Microraptor has fully feathered fingers, so in this area I think it's better than the Safari figure.

- The claws on the Safari Microraptor are very blunt and look quite blobby.   Not all dinosaur toys have their claws reduced to the same extent, so it's possible to compare claws of figures for accuracy.  If the claws of the BotM Microraptor resemble what has been shown in photos of it so far, then they will definitely be more accurate than the Safari Microraptor's.


I think in 2017 it will be possible to have a Velociraptor figure that's more accurate than the 2017 Safari Velo and the BotM Velo...  If one uses the Beasts of the Mesozoic Build-A-Raptor sets to build a Velociraptor with the Zhenyuanlong primaries and secondaries, and the feathered hands parts.  Result: A Velociraptor with lips, huge wings and fully feathered hands.

Yeah, they both have their issues (though the Amber enant doesn't have feathered fingers, the alular feathers are just long enough to cover them when they are tucked in. The fingers themselves seem to be naked distally as in Confuciousornis ). But especially for the Microraptor, I feel that the overall "look" and body shape is more important to accuracy than the small details. Safari's figures get the overall look right and the details wrong. BoM gets the details mainly right but the sum of their parts look very off compared to the Safari version.

Are you sure the raptor lacks lips? I have to find a close up of the head. Lips won't necessarily be as obvious with the mouth open.

[Flaffy]

New Update
Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1722562

Previous photos of accessory packs:

[Sim]

Not like this is anything new... we've known about the quill knobs/large wings for 10 years and I've been saying this since the first pics came out. I fear a lot of "research" done for these figures has been done by looking at skeletals and old paleo art.

It has been known since 2007 that Velociraptor had quill knobs, and technically that it consequently had large wings.  But I get the impression a lot of people interested in dinosaurs didn't know just how big that meant its wings could/should be.  Most palaeoartists I know of who I've thought cared about accuracy have done restorations of Velociraptor (or Linheraptor in the case of Julius Csotonyi) after 2007 with primaries and secondaries the same size as those of the BotM Velociraptor, if not smaller!  E.g. Emily Willoughby, Greg Paul, Scott Hartman, Julius Csotonyi, Nobu Tamura.  (I know at least Emily and Scott have made larger-winged restorations recently.)  In the 2010 book "The Princeton Field Guide to Dinosaurs", which I think has been a valued reference for many, Greg Paul said this for Velociraptor mongoliensis: "quill nodes on upper arm indicate large feather array.", and on the next page he restored V. mongoliensis with secondaries the same size as those of the BotM figure and primaries that are smaller than those of the BotM figure: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=wdKBfB2k9asC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=velociraptor%20quill&f=false

I think part of the problem is that "large wings" doesn't clearly indicate a size range.  I think for many, the wings of Greg Paul's Velociraptor from 2010 could have been thought of as large - he even implies the secondaries in his reconstruction are.  I think the available evidence now should be enough to show Velociraptor really shouldn't have smaller wings than Zhenyuanlong.  I thought David might be more likely to make a Velociraptor with larger wings if he knew what Stephen Brusatte said.

It's worth noting that Zhenyuanlong does NOT have quill knobs, which is why Brusatte implies this is what average sized dromie wings should look like. Velociraptor wings should really be larger than Zhen's.

You are correct. Despite being known from several exquisitely preserved specimen s, Archaeopteryx has never been found with quill knobs, meaning it probably lacked them in life, not just because of erosion or something as is possible with worse dromie specimens like Deinonychus (remember, not all Velociraptor specimens preserve these either).

Not all modern birds have quill knobs either. They're usually associated with high wing loading due to the demands of a certain flight or display behavior.

I had been thinking it seemed that not all Velociraptor specimens preserved quill knobs.  That and how small its preserved quill knobs are has made me wonder if on some species the quill knobs just haven't been preserved.  What you said about Archaeopteryx lacking them when alive makes sense, would this be true for Microraptor too?  Is the preservation on the one Zhenyuanlong specimen of it good enough to think it didn't have quill knobs when alive?

As for Velociraptor's wings being larger than Zhen's, I can see the reasoning for this.  I wonder though, if the differences in anatomy/proportions in the skeletons of Velociraptor and Zhenyuanlong, the very different environments these two dromaeosaurids lived in, and possibly different behaviour, could result in the quill knobbed Velociraptor's wings being similar in size to a quill knobless Zhenyuanlong's wings?  In any case, I think the available evidence is clearly showing that Velociraptor's wings would most likely not have been smaller than Zhenyuanlong's.

Yeah, they both have their issues (though the Amber enant doesn't have feathered fingers, the alular feathers are just long enough to cover them when they are tucked in. The fingers themselves seem to be naked distally as in Confuciousornis ).

When I look at that photo of the bird in amber, I think what I'm seeing is on top the finger is covered by dark alular feathers, but elsewhere the finger is covered in fine pale feathers.  This seems to be consistent with what the paper says:
"(c) Contrasting plumage colours and structure near alular digit and claw."  From here: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms12089/figures/3
"Details of the ventral wing surface are partially hidden by decay products and inclusions in the amber, but the base of the alular digit is clearly surrounded by white under marginal coverts (Fig. 3c)"  From here: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160628/ncomms12089/full/ncomms12089.html

As for Confuciusornis having bare skin on the fingers, is it certain its fingers weren't covered in fine feathers that weren't preserved?  In any case, it seems Confuciusornis has quite unusual hands, and it doesn't have an alula.

But especially for the Microraptor, I feel that the overall "look" and body shape is more important to accuracy than the small details. Safari's figures get the overall look right and the details wrong. BoM gets the details mainly right but the sum of their parts look very off compared to the Safari version.

In Greg Paul's 2016 Princeton Field Guide to Dinosaurs, he seems to restore Microraptor with feathering on its head, neck and body that's less in extent than it is on the BotM Microraptor, as seen in Reply #20 here: http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4634.msg150597#msg150597

Are you sure the raptor lacks lips? I have to find a close up of the head. Lips won't necessarily be as obvious with the mouth open.

I think the Safari Velociraptor doesn't have lips as it looks like when its mouth is closed the teeth in the upper jaw would be outside of the lower jaw.  Also, the 2017 Safari theropods with teeth Doug Watson sculpted are this Velociraptor, the Tyrannosaurus and the Coelophysis.  In the Safari 2017 thread Doug confirmed the Tyrannosaurus doesn't have lips.  I think it's safe to say the Coelophysis doesn't have lips too as its mouth is closed and the teeth in its upper jaw are visible.  I wouldn't say the Safari Velociraptor looks like it doesn't have lips unless that's how it looked to me after close examination though.

Clicking on a 2017 Safari figure in the first post of the Safari 2017 thread will load that figure's page on Safari's website where more photos of it can be seen: http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4934.0
A video with most of the figures, including the Velociraptor, was posted in Reply #1084: http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4934.msg149402#msg149402


By the way Dinoguy2, in your quote of my last post the laughing emoji is replaced with a smiling emoji.  I don't know how it happened, and I didn't edit my last post.  It's not a big deal, but it might be good to fix that in the quote, especially since we're on a different page of the thread now. 

[Faelrin]

Here is a WIP painted tree accessory with the Microraptor and Zhenyuanlong for scale. It's a big one.


Here is the first WIP nestling sculpt. He managed to give it some articulation too.

[Nanuqsaurus]

And the award for the cutest dinosaur figure ever goes to...

[Roselaar]

Looks grand!

[Lanthanotus]

While that tree looks bigger than fitting for the dinosaurs it accompanies, I really like it. I am not really interested in those articulated raptors anyway, but the accesory packs look really interesting.

[Halichoeres]

While that tree looks bigger than fitting for the dinosaurs it accompanies, I really like it. I am not really interested in those articulated raptors anyway, but the accesory packs look really interesting.

Really? If anything, I think it looks a little small. I'll probably end up using it with my 1:40 dinos. I guess it could be a young tree. It's meant to be Araucaria, right?

[Dinoguy2]

Sim: Regarding GSP's newest Microraptor restoration... wow. I thought some of his previous restorations were bad but this takes the cake. Except maybe his Beipiaosaurus that takes every single quirk of taphonomy literally and makes it into a walking zombie. Shrink wrapping gone wrong. There's barely room for flesh inside that Microraptor neck let alone anywhere near the correct volume of feathers. Too bad. He used to be the master but his restorations are stuck in the 80s and his feathered dinosaurs have been pretty uniformly garbage for a long time.

"Most palaeoartists I know of who I've thought cared about accuracy have done restorations of Velociraptor (or Linheraptor in the case of Julius Csotonyi) after 2007 with primaries and secondaries the same size as those of the BotM Velociraptor, if not smaller! "

Just goes to show the power of paleo memes. "Big wings" back then might have sounded like it meant bigger than the pathetic fuzz people used to put on Sinornithosaurus arms. But that doesn't really excuse it - clearly those early versions could have used more actual research into what quill knobs are and how they work before being made (which most if those artists have since done and updated).

As for lips, it sounds like Watson is on the anti side. Hard to call this an inaccuracy as it's subject to active debate even though I'm personally solidly pro-lip.

[terrorchicken]

the tree looks great! thats why I wanted the forest pack, I love prehistoric plants!

[Sim]

From the Creative Beast Studio Facebook page:

Accessory Pack prototypes are now prepped for paint! Here are all four sets mostly assembled showing all that is included with each. I want to say a big 'thank you' to my mold maker Jeremy Monz who has done an amazing job not only reproducing my sculpts into resin copies, but also for his impressive turnaround time, always keeping up with my crazy requests. I'm very pleased with how these are turning out and can't wait to show off the painted versions soon!

[terrorchicken]

they look amazing! really tempted to get another set.
and it comes with a background image clip? how nice of them!(Ive always needed one of those things!)

[Flaffy]

I'm really fond of the mononykus, however, the desert accessory pack seems like it has the least number of accessories.

[Faelrin]

So not counting all the other stuff all the packs share (rods, foot bases for the small figures, the small figures themselves, bases, and egg clutches with the hatchling), I see the wetlands has four accessories (if we count the foot splash base, horsetail cluster, two ferns), the desert has three (protoceratops skull, large rock, small rock), the forest has two (not counting the branches for the tree, then it has the tree and log), and the mountains has three (fern, tree, small rock). Pretty good set up I think. I still want to get the desert and mountain packs for now, and hopefully the other two later. I think these will be very fun to have for dioramas and maybe more.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I'm really fond of the mononykus, however, the desert accessory pack seems like it has the least number of accessories.

each looks to have compensations to me, the desert base is a bit larger and the proto skull makes up for a bunch of foliage.   

are the trees in the mountain/forest packs the same?

[Faelrin]

The trees are the same but will be painted differently for each pack's environment from what I remember reading. Here's a copy paste of the post made for the tree size comparison. I should have posted this earlier when I shared that image.

Here is the Araucaria tree from the a Beasts of the Mesozoic Forest and Mountains Accessory Packs. It measures 10" tall when assembled and consists of four parts. Each tree will feature a unique paint scheme suited to it's environment.

[Daspletotyrannus]

They all look good. Can't wait to see them painted.

[Thylacosmilus]

The Wetlands Accessory Pack base:

[Sim]

The description for that photo on Facebook is, "Early WIP- painting the Wetlands Accessory Pack base. Water effect is achieved by painting the underside of the translucent resin and high-glossing the top portion. More updates soon."

Even as an "Early WIP", it's looking very impressive!

[Arcadya]

Hi,

I was not unfortunately able to participate to the kickstarter and I would be interested to have a velociraptor osmolskae.

I thus wondered if somebody (in France if possible) could order me one by the pledge manager?

If somebody can, I invite him to contact me by MP. Thank you in advance!