David Silvas New Kickstarter: Articulated Dinosaur TOYS

[Flaffy]

In that comparison image of the new and old head, to me it looks like the new head has a smaller skull.  The distance between the nostril and eye seems to be a bit less, and both the lower and upper jaw look smaller overall.

Yeah, now that I'm looking at this on a larger screen the new one is noticeably smaller. But its still significantly too large compared to the size it should be.

Zhenyuanlong had a really small head , compared to some other 'raptors'.

[Silvanusaurus]

It's feeling like discussion and the subsequent conclusion of the inaccuracy of the Zhenyuanlong has become an almost weekly ritual now.

[Dinoguy2]

In that comparison image of the new and old head, to me it looks like the new head has a smaller skull.  The distance between the nostril and eye seems to be a bit less, and both the lower and upper jaw look smaller overall.

Yeah, now that I'm looking at this on a larger screen the new one is noticeably smaller. But its still significantly too large compared to the size it should be.

Zhenyuanlong had a really small head , compared to some other 'raptors'.

Not sure about that, I think artists get thrown off because the "standard" dromaeosaurs is Velociraptor, which has an unusually long and narrow skull. So when dealing with more incomplete species they incorrectly scale up by its length instead of its height. If you look at the linked Accuracy thread, many of the BoM figures have heads that are too big and the rest aren't known from complete skulls or skull/skeleton combos. The only figures that have definitely accurate sized heads are, not coincidentally, all the velociraptorines (Velociraptor, Linheraptor, Tsaagan). Saurornitholestes, Dromaeosaurus, Zhenyuanlong all have too large heads. Acheroraptor, Pyroraptor, Balaur don't have known head-body proportions but based on the rest their heads are probably also too big.

[Sim]

In that comparison image of the new and old head, to me it looks like the new head has a smaller skull.  The distance between the nostril and eye seems to be a bit less, and both the lower and upper jaw look smaller overall.

Yeah, now that I'm looking at this on a larger screen the new one is noticeably smaller. But its still significantly too large compared to the size it should be.

Are you sure the new Zhenyuanlong head is still too big?  To me it looks like it could be the right size now, or very close to the right size.

Zhenyuanlong had a really small head , compared to some other 'raptors'.

Not sure about that, I think artists get thrown off because the "standard" dromaeosaurs is Velociraptor, which has an unusually long and narrow skull. So when dealing with more incomplete species they incorrectly scale up by its length instead of its height. If you look at the linked Accuracy thread, many of the BoM figures have heads that are too big and the rest aren't known from complete skulls or skull/skeleton combos. The only figures that have definitely accurate sized heads are, not coincidentally, all the velociraptorines (Velociraptor, Linheraptor, Tsaagan). Saurornitholestes, Dromaeosaurus, Zhenyuanlong all have too large heads. Acheroraptor, Pyroraptor, Balaur don't have known head-body proportions but based on the rest their heads are probably also too big.

Recently I had thoughts that were very similar to what you expressed in the above quote, Dinoguy2.  But then I realised that Deinonychus appears to have a skull that's proportionately deeper but also slightly longer than Velociraptor's!  I've linked to Scott Hartman's skeletals below for comparison:
Deinonychus: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Terrible-Claw-310579803
Velociraptor: http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/Speedy-Plunderer-358749381

[Faelrin]

The Dromaeosaurus figure's head lines up nicely with the skull though, or at least I think it does? I did a quick photomanip for myself a bit back to try to compare the figure's head to the skull. Here's a tiny preview of the photomanip I did (not finished yet):

The body was never found right? So how is it too big, by inferring?

[Dinoguy2]

The Dromaeosaurus figure's head lines up nicely with the skull though, or at least I think it does? I did a quick photomanip for myself a bit back to try to compare the figure's head to the skull. Here's a tiny preview of the photomanip I did (not finished yet):

The body was never found right? So how is it too big, by inferring?

The body has been found, but fragmentary. Here's a speculative reconstruction using known proportions (meaning the details might be wrong but in general the proportions should be correct:



Note that the skull is, proportionally, about as deep as Velociraptor and Deinonychus. But it's just got a much shorter snout. Same for Zhenyuanlong and Saurornitholestes as far as I can tell (but Saurornitholestes has much shorter legs). The proportions shown as more speculative for Drom here are a pretty close match for Zhen. If David were ever to revisit this series he should do one "base" model with long tibiae and a short/small head and use it for these two and Atrociraptor.

I'm not trying to be too critical of these figures, and they're not all bad. I ordered a Velociraptorine, and the velociraptorines are all spot on. That's because he based ALL of their proportions of Velociraptor, which he probably made first, but that hides the diversity of proportions among dromeosaurids. Velociraptor is actually pretty weird and derived with its stubby legs, long neck, and long skull.

[Faelrin]

I see what you're getting at now (I think. Smaller head compared to the body, and longer legs?). I wish one day they'd find more remains for that one, to know for sure what it was like, but it's a chance based thing. Needs to be in the right environmental conditions when the animals dies, right place at the right time to find the fossils, etc. I took a chance when getting the two Dromaeosaurus (regular and fan's choice) since I knew there was so little on it found. Science is bound to march right on those someday, if chance allows it. I mainly got them though because I loved the color schemes for those two, and they appeased my nostalgia for JP raptors (also due to the color schemes), while being feathered (though I know the JP raptors were based on old reconstruction of Deinonychus).

Edit: I have yet to look, but now I'm wondering how does the foot and "sickle" claw fossils shape up on the Dromaeosaurus figure? I can check when I get gimp installed again though (just did a factory reset on my laptop the other day).

[Sim]

I've been doing comparisons, and I think the new Zhenyuanlong head and the Dromaeosaurus head might actually be the right size.  There are four lower jaw parts used for the main raptor figures.  In response to a question about the build-a-raptor sets, David mentioned each lower jaw only works on the raptor that uses it in the regular figures (this is where he said this).

Lower jaw type 1 is used by: Velociraptor, Saurornitholestes, Adasaurus, Acheroraptor, Pyroraptor
Lower jaw type 2 is used by: Atrociraptor
Lower jaw type 3 is used by: Tsaagan, Balaur, Linheraptor
Lower jaw type 4 is used by: Dromaeosaurus, Zhenyuanlong

Lower jaw types 1, 2 and 3 all seem to be approximately the same length.  Either type 1 or 3 is used for all the velociraptorines (Velociraptor, Tsaagan, Adasaurus, Acheroraptor and Linheraptor) and Balaur which has been given a velociraptorine-like head.  The other raptors that have one of these long lower jaw parts are Atrociraptor, Saurornitholestes and Pyroraptor.  I think the mistake Dinoguy2 suggested, where the head is scaled to the length, rather than the height, of Velociraptor's head, seems to have happened with these three.  Deinonychus appears to have a snout that is proportionately deeper and slightly longer than Velociraptor's, which gives it a pretty big head!  However, the BotM Atrociraptor, Saurornitholestes and Pyroraptor appear to have a head that proportionately is almost the same length as that of Deinonychus, while their upper jaw is much deeper than that of Deinonychus!  The Zhenyuanlong figure was going to have the same lower jaw as Atrociraptor at one point, and I think that is the lower jaw the old, too-big Zhenyuanlong head had.

Lower jaw type 4 seems to be noticeably shorter than the other three lower jaw types.  This jaw part is used for Dromaeosaurus and the updated Zhenyuanlong, and to me it looks like their heads might actually be the correct size.  I've noticed that for these two raptors that use this shorter lower jaw type, a photoshop check hasn't been done for the updated Zhenyuanlong figure, and while Dinoguy2 did one for the Dromaeosaurus, it was the only one at an angle in the photo of it.  And Dinoguy2 said this in the Beasts of the Mesozoic Accuracy Check thread:

The only one that doesn't have a side pic is Dromaeosaurus, so that one in particular might be off. Notice that the head is too big and legs too small, which could be an illusion caused by perspective in the photo.

A side pic of the Dromaeosaurus can be seen here: https://www.facebook.com/113487525333128/photos/a.1154970781184792.1073741847.113487525333128/1421897194492148/?type=3&theater

[Dinoguy2]

Maybe, but the Photoshop version of Zhenyuanlong I scaled directly to a photo of the fossil still has a noticeable  smaller head than the revised figures. I'd have to check the side view of Dromaeosaurus.

[Sim]

I just placed a see-through version of the revised Zhenyuanlong figure over the corrected photoshop Zhenyuanlong you did Dinoguy2, and their skulls appear to be the same size...  The differences in the heads appear to basically be that the revised Zhen has greater feathering and its teeth are more covered by lips than they are in the original version.  The actual length of the teeth, and length, height and proportions of the skull of the revised version seem to match with your corrected photoshop version.  Excluding the lower leg, the proportions of the revised Zhenyuanlong also seem to match those of Greg Paul's Zhenyuanlong skeletal which can be seen in Reply #20 here: http://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=4634.msg150597#msg150597

It would be interesting to see what results you get.

I used a see-through version of the revised Zhenyuanlong in the image below.  Although they aren't needed for these comparisons, I think side pics of the painted revised Zhenyuanlong and the Pyroraptor and four fan's choice figures were only shown in the Backerkit.  I'm going to ask David if he can post them as I think it would be interesting to see them again. 

[DinoLord]

Great analysis guys. I ultimately passed on the Zhenyuanlong (and Balaur) due to the iffy leg proportions, but good to see the skull retool improved things. At least proportions are a lot more similar across ceratopsians (for the next BoTM line)!

[Flaffy]

I plan to get the zhenyuanlong if it gets a revision, regarding the secondaries and tibia length, on the potential second production run.

[Shadowknight1]

I like the coloration and basic design too much to pass on Zhenyuanlong in hopes of an unconfirmed second run fixing it.

[Killekor]

In my backerit preorder i have get the mainline Zhenyuanlong and the forest accessory pack. I'm very excited.

Predasaurskillekor

[Flaffy]

New and final update for 2016.
Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1770619

[Killekor]

Good to know!

Killekor

[Mirroraptor]

I want to know when they will be listed.
And,Zhenyuanlong and Dromaeosaurus used the body of Velociraptor whether it fitted them or not.Dromaeosaurus and Zhenyuanlong has near vertical pubis,different from Velociraptor.
Anyhow,they are excellent raptor figures.I have been concerned about this project since April on Twi,hope to soon be able to get them.

[Flaffy]

The pre-order store will be re-opened next month, and the remaining stock will go to David's website to be sold.
The figures are still in production, estimated to be shipped out for KS and Backerkit backers in May 2017.

[Sim]

I want to know when they will be listed.
And,Zhenyuanlong and Dromaeosaurus used the body of Velociraptor whether it fitted them or not.Dromaeosaurus and Zhenyuanlong has near vertical pubis,different from Velociraptor.
Anyhow,they are excellent raptor figures.I have been concerned about this project since April on Twi,hope to soon be able to get them.

David made a part that attaches to the pelvis of the Zhenyuanlong and Dromaeosaurus figures that gives them a vertical pubis.  That's represented by the yellow part on the pelvis in the parts map: http://creative-beast.com/wp-content/gallery/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-concept-art-and-design/final-final-final-raptors-parts-map-horizontal-revised-2.jpg

The difference can be seen by comparing that area in Zhenyuanlong/Dromaeosaurus to it in Pyroraptor/Saurornitholestes in the photos here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1684395

It does feel weird though that David didn't resculpt the pelvis for Zhenyuanlong and Dromaeosaurus, instead making a part that will be attached to the pelvis.  It feels like it would've looked better if he resculpted the pelvis.

[Flaffy]

Update #58: Production Update with Fine Cut photos
Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1775489


Update #59: Backerkit is reopening
Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/creativebeast/beasts-of-the-mesozoic-raptor-series-action-figure/posts/1779612