General discussion - public

[DinoToyForum]

Wow some of the people in here are being more toxic than these figures themselves. Like oh my gosh I was trying to catch up on the current state of the matter and instead I see people just being assholes to each other. My goodness 

This has been the low of this discussion so far. Thank you everyone for returning to a more rational and factual way of discussing things.

 Gasp! I must have missed that.
 I have seen members (me included) banned for less.

You are quite right, it's a blatant violation of the first two forum rules. I just saw this post myself so I have banned @Dinoxels for two weeks.

[Thialfi]

Last night I had a dream in which the CollectA 2023 angel shark won the vote for best prehistoric figure of 2023 👀

[Leyster]

SOrry to bother, but does this look even in line with rule 1 to you all?

Dear Rebor Studio

? FYI our diplodocus was built muscle by muscle and we can name and pinpoint every single one of them, the sculpt took us 90 days to finish and the first 30 days was the research period,

You might as well have taken two years, those are still wrong. That's not how sauropods forearms looks like. You can check the papers I posted, your model is wrong. If you have a different idea about sauropod forelimb muscles arrangement, you're free to try submitting it to a journal and, if it passes peer-review, I'll be happy to have a look at it.

remember we made the Compsognathus Dissection Specimen with a chart showing each and every organ

It's... the damned Jurassic Park Compsgnathus. It's not accurate, like, by default.

ake a look at PNSO Lingwulong and Mamenchisaurus again and tell me that you can't see muscle definition.

There's a clear difference between a figure with the correct muscolature and one overmuscled to the point of looking like a caricature of the real thing. The limbs of your Diplodocus are exagerated (on top of being wrong).

(from Tieba Baidu)
As I said, the funny thing is that you could've avoided all this by not making them overly ripped and thus harder to pinpoint.

You are mistaken skin impressions(scale shapes to be exact) with skin textures unfortunately.

Please expand this point, cause it's kinda hard to get what are you trying to say. I'm not a native speaker. What I know is that, when I compare your model to the skin impressions of Diplodocus we know, they do not match. To me, it look like you might have used an elephant as a model, but I might be wrong.

I'll pretend you didn't say that cus by that measure every single BOM figure isn't accurate yet they look pretty accurate to us

Guess what? I agree... in a way. Action figures are compromises to reality due to playability. As far as I remember (but I might be wrong) I think at some point BOTM were even advertised as toys. But you didn't advertise it as an action figure, nor - as far as I know - is supposed to be such.

Michelangelo's David is a masterpiece and a pretty accurate representation of a young male Homo sapiens yet most of us don't have David's muscle definition or body ratio, guess we aren't accurate enough for alien abductors then

It's very funny that you say that, because - you know? - Michelangelo's David is NOT accurate to an human body. In fact, hands and head are oversized, because the statue was meant to be observed from below and thus this corrected the perspective distortion.

Told you we have a surgeon and a vet in our team. Your argument regarding muscle arrangement is invalid, not even going to waste another second on the topic.

OK let's check out what you said: Sauropods have very peculiar forelimbs: in all quadrupedal dinosaurs except for sauropos, the forelimbs touches the ground, contributes in dissipating the weight load, but cannot generate a push.

Do you have any idea how physics works, even the GCSE level ones? Cus according to your concept even a one degree slope would be proven too difficult for any sauropod to handle cus it requires a "push". And how would sauropods walk exactly? Cus surely they'd need to lift one of their limbs at some point right? As soon as they did that reaction force on other three limbs would certainly increase, that's also a "push". By your logic they just couldn't mate could they cus it presumably requires far more complex limb movements than a "push", right?

Have you seen those mythical creature anatomy arts? You really should check out The Resurrectionist: The Lost Work of Dr. Spencer Black, turn out as long as you know anatomy well enough then you'll be able to reconstruct an anatomically correct Sphinx.

And did you just assume that we are not familar with David? WOW. Guess anything beyond basic perspective is simply too difficult for you to grasp?

The fact that you mentioned bendy neck and tail aren't correct shows that you are judging our works with extreme prejudice, otherwise who in right mind would say anything like that? Basically you assumed we know absolutely nothing at all from the very beginning then shoehorning in any excuses you can come up with to support your narrative. This is just sad.

[PumperKrickel]

No. I think both you and Rebor went over the line and should receive a ban.

Are you seriously surprised they weren't particularly open to your criticisms when one of the first things you said was that "they don't know how muscles work?" Accurate as it may be, it's a rude statement.

[stargatedalek]

So, I know this isn't exactly the most original take, but it's starting to get on my nerves the degree to which REBOR actively misrepresents the amount of research that goes into their products.

This was a big point of contention when the company was young, but over time REBOR had gradually let up on the marketing push, at least around here.

REBOR makes visually impressive, cool figures. I own a few of them and like them a lot (including the mentioned Compsognathus dissection model). They are not accurate, no, but that doesn't matter. Nor do inaccurate figures bother me, I like to see creativity in design so while I may criticize some companies for lacklustre copies of existing designs (Nanmu) or relying on art style to cover up lacklustre detail and quality (Schleich), REBOR is not generally among them (anymore).

But recently REBOR has been aggressive again. Trying to claim their models are heavily researched and scientifically grounded, when they are not. They do things like change the scutes on Deinosuchus to look more like modern crocodiles, or have bulging muscles on their Smilodon and Diplodocus. These would be fine design decisions if REBOR just accepted and promoted them as design decisions. That is not what REBOR has done. When these things are mentioned REBOR doesn't say "We aren't trying to get every detail right, we make what we want to make.", they say "Nuh-uh, we hired a VET, therefore all our stuff is perfect!".

It's rude, childish, and on multiple cases provably incorrect. It's also aggressive and reactionary to the point I genuinely think it's the representative lying for some preconception they have of being instructed to save face. The mighty REBOR can never make any errors, everything they make is done with the best science. Nay, REBOR are science!

This is some of the saddest examples of corporate damage control I've seen and it's an extra bad look from a relatively small company.

[Lynx]

Maybe I'm a little too desensitized, but I'll be honest, in complete respect, please do not get me wrong, I don't see how the comment was rude enough to warrant a ban.

Further, again in complete respect, both of you lot made rude comments to one another of a similar manner.

[stargatedalek]

Maybe I'm a little too desensitized, but I'll be honest, in complete respect, please do not get me wrong, I don't see how the comment was rude enough to warrant a ban.

Further, again in complete respect, both of you lot made rude comments to one another of a similar manner.

I think however we should keep intentions in mind.

Could criticisms have been worded more politely and constructively? Absolutely.

But REBOR is responding as a company. And a company misrepresenting it's work and getting angry when called out for it, even if called out impolitely, should be held to different standards. REBOR are making bizarre claims, such as implying they know more about anatomy than people experienced with the subject matter in question because they read books on reconstructing fantasy anatomy or dissected completely unrelated creatures. Comparative anatomy is a great skill but it doesn't overwrite the inherent anatomy shown in the fossils themselves.

If REBOR isn't lying through their teeth, they think "this thing vaguely resembles other thing" is more important than the actual preserved fossils (Deinosuchus scutes for example). And picking fights either to defend the reputation of your company and insist it's always right, or because you have such a fundamentally flawed understanding of the process you are attempting to argue about, is just disruptive behaviour.

[Bread]

Are you seriously surprised they weren't particularly open to your criticisms when one of the first things you said was that "they don't know how muscles work?" Accurate as it may be, it's a rude statement.

I don't see how L @Leyster's comment was particularly rude and I don't seem to understand the reasoning to make Rebor's response to his comment valid. Their models can be over muscular, and therefore can be criticized. Simple.

Rebor presented information in response to this comment, too. And they were corrected but couldn't seem to accept it. Simple.

[PumperKrickel]

You don't see how utterly denying one's qualifications on a certain subject might make them less receptive to criticism? Seems obvious to me, but we don't have to agree.

My point was that neither REBOR nor Leyster handled that argument particularly well, so I just thought it was rich for Leyster to come here and basically ask for REBOR to be banned.

Of course REBOR should receive harsher treatment, given their history and the position they hold. It's just heartbreaking to see REBOR, after slowly managing to regain the forum's goodwill with professional conduct over several years, throw all that away over some mild criticism.

[Leyster]

You don't see how utterly denying one's qualifications on a certain subject might make them less receptive to criticism? Seems obvious to me, but we don't have to agree.

Please, have a look at the comments made in other threads, such as PNSO 2023. I hope authors do not take as offense my picking (I deleted their name to make them anonymous), they're just used to prove my point:

PNSO's three most recent tyrannosaurids only look natural to me when their lower jaw is in one position. .... Otherwise, the Tyrannosaurus looks goofy and the Daspletosaurus and Lythronax look forced to keep their mouth open.

Anyone else think that it's a double standard that Creative Beast can release 10 members of the same family at once and nobody complains, but when PNSO do something similar, people throw the toys out their pram?

but, ugh, this is just another boring scheme on a boring model. Say what you will about BoTM being "unrealistic" (again, subjective as we don't have dead Tyrannosaurids to look at), but at least they've got character and presence. All of these PNSO Tyrannosaurs look the same in the worst way possible. I look forward to seeing Haolonggood overtaking PNSO if this is the future of this company, especially after that abysmal Albertosaurus that will most likely stand as well as Caroline the Corythosaurus.

Well, I've compared their Torvosaurus to Nelson Muntz, and I think the face of their Sinraptor is horrific. They're just allergic to soft tissue around the mouth, it seems

At this point they are Mr. Burns territory  with all the teeth showing out.

Do they look any less harsh than mine? Or it's just because PNSO isn't here in the DTF?
Also, denying their qualifications isn't an insult, given that both their recent Tyrannosaurus and Diplodocus have problems in the very same aspect. Have you ever seen PNSO's videos? Or mr.Watson's aswers? I might not be ok with everything they say, but they give me actual reasoning about why something is like that. Had REBOR provided something supporting their opinion, that'd be different, but they actually said "trust me, we are right because we have a vet" right in front of the work of actual researchers which say that no, they are not right.
Again, without providing actual source. If I say that I'm Jack Horner, this would make every one of my post when I talk about the scientific aspect of a figure automatically right?

it was rich for Leyster to come here and basically ask for REBOR to be banned

Not more than other users did, see here: https://dinotoyblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=47.msg348087#msg348087

Anyway, I personally don't care much about what mods decide for myself (after yesterday's discussion, I was pretty convinced to delete my account anyway, @Mattyonyx said me not to do it). I was even decided never to post in that thread, until REBOR started making accusations such as:

Even he admitted that he's argeument regarding inaccuracies of bendy neck and tail was invalid and he has no soild evidence of proving the head is wrong, so what's the point of dumping rubbish onto others' hard works so irresponsibly???

hat he judged our works with extreme prejudice, assumed we know absolutely nothing at all from the very beginning then shoehorning in any excuses he can come up with to support his narrative. He might always act like this but to us this is very personal and we can't stand it even a bit.

Which cannot be left unanswered. On the top of the various accusations, I was the one providing actual science backing up my claims, while they ignored them ad proceded to repeatedly nitpick other points in my comment.

[ceratopsian]

Personally I find Rebor's aggressive attitude unwarranted and unpleasant and their arguments in response largely unconvincing.

I'm glad Mattyonyx dissuaded you from acting in haste. Your presence here is valued L @Leyster.

[SidB]

I'm glad that you've decided to continue as a participating member, L @Leyster and it's a fine thing to get wise council, such as offered to you by @Mattyonyx . You have made and continue to make a considerable contribution to the discussions on the Forum and I'm sure that I'm not alone in regarding you as one of the 'go to' sources of experience, knowledge and sound judgement.

In my opinion, I think that unpacking your reasoning behind the current critique of the Rebor design philosophy is a useful and educational exercise for other members, but I'm not convinced that anything that might be offered would convince them that it is erroneous or exaggerated. The thing is that the product, which I'm sure will please many people, is now in active production and it will be too late for them to altar it now, though of course you know that, obviously. Maybe for the future, if they are inclined to listen. Maybe the degree of realism that you are endeavoring to assert is beyond the locus of their design philosophy and market goals. If so, their would be nothing wrong with Rebor being forthright about that, as @stargatedalek has pointed out, though nothing said so far on their part would indicate that, IMO, again.

Personally, I'm hoping that the discussion can proceed without rancor, and that no one needs to be banned. I don't think that such a step should be immanent. 

[thomasw100]

Personally I find Rebor's aggressive attitude unwarranted and unpleasant and their arguments in response largely unconvincing.

I'm glad Mattyonyx dissuaded you from acting in haste. Your presence here is valued L @Leyster.

I feel exactly the same. I read this thread because I was thinking of getting the Diplodocus. But I got really shocked by the negative attitude of that representative from Rebor. When I expressed this and compared that to the always positive and friendly behavior of the guy from Haolonggood, that Rebor guy even got aggressive against me. I have not even taken a side in the original discussion. I am sorry but this representative from Rebor has really shown immature behavior in this interaction.

[Leyster]

@ceratopsian S @SidB T @thomasw100 thank you all for your support, it's heartwarming.

S @SidB I think somebody happened to your post? There is a "contribution" floating alone some lines below everything else.

[EmperorDinobot]

They are just figures, after all.

But we, as paying customers, should demand better quality from companies that advertise the quality they say they offer, and if they are going to participate in a place such as this one, then they should take constructive criticism when given by the potential consumer(s). Said consumers should express themselves and behave politely though, as should the representatives of the company.


Speaking of figures, I just realized I overlapped two appointments for work on Tuesday at the same hour and have to call to cancel one or the other. My PC's LCD screen worked because even though it's one of those flippy laptops that can double as a tablet, the design is actually pretty bad. The left side hinge broke, but the brass screws are behind the screen itself, surrounded by soft plastic. I did not drop the pc, and I never ever even used the flip tablet feature. It is possible that it broke while I was on the laptop with the covers over me, while the screen was on a 90 degree position. Now I have this enormous vertical blindspot on the left side that prevents me from seeing things as one normally would. I have to click on the icon between minimize and x to see things like dates and stuff. It's very annoying to type on a word document. Funnily enough, the quick response box here lies JUST right of the blind spot, so I can type my thoughts out, just as I'm doing now.
My eyesight's going though. I will have to rely on autocorrect more than ever.

[SidB]

@ceratopsian S @SidB T @thomasw100 thank you all for your support, it's heartwarming.

S @SidB I think somebody happened to your post? There is a "contribution" floating alone some lines below everything else.

It had no business floating along at the bottom - so, now it's been sent packing!

[Leyster]

S @SidB You'll float too 




Anyway, just edited my previous post to add more examples of harsher posts I found scrolling in various threads. Do my opinions on that Diplodocus really stand out among them? Has any other brand stormed their thread with accusations in defense of their model?

[Lynx]

Might be a mistake but I don't see it edited

[Leyster]

@Lynx

Well, I've compared their Torvosaurus to Nelson Muntz, and I think the face of their Sinraptor is horrific. They're just allergic to soft tissue around the mouth, it seems

this one is new.

Oh, also just found this one:

At this point they are Mr. Burns territory  with all the teeth showing out.

It looks like The Simpsons are a great source of inspiration in this forum 

[stargatedalek]

I'm not sure you're making the point you think you are with all those quotes about PNSO? While they are similarly negative, they are not addressed so personally as yours was. They're just people sharing negative opinions about the figures themselves. Your post was directed at/about REBOR (as was mine that I made in this thread). Completely different can of worms.

I do think the REBOR account has overstepped throughout the last few months. Frequent arguing and outright lying when called out. It's insulting to be completely frank. But you took the bait when you engaged to that degree (I should know).