General discussion - public

[Leyster]

@stargatedalek sorry, but what's the difference between saying that PNSO is allergic to lips and that Rebor do not know how muscles work?  Isn't that an accusation towards PNSO in the same liege? Because I sincerely do not understand it, apart from the fact that REBOR is in forum and pnso no?

[Stegotyranno420]

I did not want to say anything on this to avoid anymore conflict, however I must say this:
Both parties have my great respect, and are well meaning and contributing members to the forum, even with their (in others peoples word, paraphrased, I am neutral and dont think any party is in the wrong) "snarky remarks" they had made.
I appreciate both parties for what they contribute, and I hope this does not get carried out longer.
In the end, we all just love dinosaurs.

[Mattyonyx]

@stargatedalek I think L @Leyster has a point. After reading his reply to Rebor's request about Diplodocus, I recommended he be less harsh, mainly because I was worried about how Rebor would have reacted. Then things went as expected and escalated quickly. But again, it's because of how Rebor usually handles such comments.

I mean, we can find a lot of negative posts about other models, which are however a criticism of how a company works, and I think we all remember what happened with Shane from Safari.

Should Leyster have been more polite? Yes, as other users should on other occasions.
does it justify Rebor's behavior? Absolutely not.

Many users on this forum were (and maybe still are) convinced Rebor's attitude changed because of a couple messages from a certain  "Miss REBOR" or "Anne".

Now we have confirmation that it was an isolated case, which didn't stop whoever is behind that account from being aggressive with other users, diminishing Mauricio Anton's artistry, discrediting other sculptors, spreading lies about Vitae's cheap figures, and even admitting Rebor boycotted them!

Honestly, it's like Rebor can say anything about anyone, but no one can even express doubt when talking about their models.

I think there's a worrying trend, among reviewers and YouTubers, of ignoring real anatomical issues and claiming figures like Rebor's Diplodocus are incredibly accurate: it happened with some Papo figures and Kiss/Tusk too.
Ironically, topics like lips or feathers are usually brought to the table when judging a figure, and they're not as crucial as actual muscle anatomy.

So, it's not just about Rebor's work, it's more about helping people better understand these animals and the figures in their hands, which is the very reason this forum exists.

[postsaurischian]

So, it's not just about Rebor's work, it's more about helping people better understand these animals and the figures in their hands, which is the very reason this forum exists.

It's always funny to read what other members (joining many years later) are telling me which is the very reason this forum exists .
Obviously I joined for the very wrong reasons - fun, beauty and learning what else there is on the global market that I might have missed (with good pictures at best).

Some people only seem to be here for self-exposing reasons. I don't like many of the figures being discussed, especially in the action figures section, but I won't comment on them, because I don't care and I do not want to spoil other members' fun they're having with them. If I don't like a certain T.rex figure, what the hey? There are dozens of others I could go for.

Having been a collector for more than 50 years now I'm very happy with what is offered today. Some younger members just don't seem to be able to appreciate that. Unfortunately the increasing negativism of this forum is putting off important members whose contributions to our hobby I really miss. If I'd like to read dissertations by the pageful I'd take a scientific book in my hands.

[SidB]

The endless search for accuracy is certainly a double-edged sword. If it is coupled with a love of beauty, and a certain delight in the hobby as sheer fun, by all means, continue. Such an attitude is tolerant of other perspectives and angles of approach to collecting on the part of others. It's what keep interest alive for decades, ever fresh, ever renewed. It profoundly appreciates truth and precision, while continuing to be open to other avenues available for the collector. It certainly is quick to sniff out nonsensical and exaggerated claims on the part of companies that misrepresent their products.

On the other hand, there's a hyper-reductionist approach that excludes everything except the one value of accuracy, always an elusive target. It distains every other source of enjoyment in the hobby, having little or no use for them. It seems to be generally dissatisfied and restless, never content with what it has or will be getting. It shrivels the very hobby that it enters - I never cease to be amazed with exponents of this approach, who burn out like meteorites, ditch their collectibles after a strikingly short time in the hobby, constantly frustrated by the difficulty of achieving 'the perfect' in thing or another.

It's a big hobby, which can accommodate multiple avenues of entry and participation. We're all here for one reason or another, sometimes several, obviously. The  problem arises when reductionists of one sort or another start to reach a critical mass and poison the water for all others, including themselves.

[Libraraptor]

Thank you, @postsaurischian and @SidB, for these temperate and balanced words, most of which I sign.  I came here for fun and quickly became proud of becoming part of a cool and decent community 15 or so years ago, when nitpicking, squabbling, offending and rudeness were taboo. Compared to what we collectors and paleonerds had back then, these are glorious times, albeit I honestly sometimes miss  the quirkiness, the joy  of hunting and the proud of finding (or even accidentally stumbling upon😊) figures and the peaceful communication we actively took care for.
 I  work hard for this forum to remain the peaceful community which had welcomed me with open arms and without any snootines or ivory tower mentality back in 2008 I think. But I and the other moderators cannot do this alone.
Everyone is responsible for drawing their own horns, too, and the lion's share of all our members communicates modestly, does not take themselves too seriously and has much other stuff to manage besides insisting in being right in a discussion, too. I mean, what is this forum all about? It is prehistory, its depiction and perception in science, art and pop culture and the fun all this brings.
Albeit as a moderator I follow every thread carefully, I simply do not actively participate in threads about figures and other stuff I am not really interested in or do not like.
Admittedly I sometimes fail my own claim, especially when the topic is Schleich, a company I really dislike. Then I become cynical and ridicule them.
But then I thought to myself, you know what, Schleich does not care for you, why should you waste your time troubling over them? There is so much great stuff to focus on, why nitpick over things I can not change anyway.

[Faelrin]

Very good food for thought from all of you. The below is very long, and I hope it is comprehensive. If I made any grammatical mistakes I am sorry. I don't want to revise this again.

TL;DR: There's definitely a real push for accuracy here, to the point where it gets aggressive, and excludes anyone outside that mindset. Even those with a similar mindset might still get picked at, or torn apart, if they get something wrong, like crabs in a bucket.

I initially joined this forum back in 2016 for one or two reasons, JP Legacy forums were closed, and I wanted a place to discuss the BotM figures, since I was super ecstatic to finally have a line of highly articulated dinosaur action figures, considering I was previously only an action figure collector at the time. I had only caught wind of this forum from finding reviews on the blog of the Hasbro JW toys in 2015. Back to BotM, they were accurate for the most part, which was shocking as well particularly for the time, when accurate dromaeosaurids were pretty much non existent on the market (until Safari Ltd's Velociraptor released shortly after, perhaps other then Papo's feathered one, albeit with some issues).

I did notice there was a certain presence on this forum that has had a dominance ever since I joined. That being towards accuracy, and of the at-most. We see it in the polls, the discussion, etc. Even figures like BotM were still unsatisfactory to some people in some ways, rather it be proportions, etc (never mind this forum's large disinterest in action figures, also seen in the polls with how poor BotM does, despite being some of the most accurate options out there. I'll be real, it makes me feel disheartened at times for sure, because they are good figures getting dismissed or pushed aside purely because of having articulation, or perhaps their choice of scale). I remember meeting David from the first time later that year (or the next, can't remember) at a toy con thing, and overheard someone speaking to him about the over scrutinizing that goes on this forum, and how frustrating he found it, and we know this dude is really good with receiving constructive criticism. But sometimes there's just too much of it, and it can really truly burn someone out. I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of why he left here (other then just being busy). Man knows a lot, but he isn't going to know everything, neither are all of us, so there may be a few things he gets wrong for time, or there were intentional sacrifices for anatomy because of part sharing, etc. Some of us are more familiar with some genera then others. Like I certainly am not all that knowledgeable when it comes to sauropods, etc. Dromaeosaurids are probably the things I know the most with, and some other things here and there, but I'm still no means an expert, just a hobbyist.

In a way I'm not surprised Rebor does get aggressively defensive at times, not that I fully agree with it, but, again I'm not particularly surprised. I remember that Yutyrannus not being fully feathered, plus the name choice, and sure it's not my cup of tea, because the full feathers is part of the appeal for me, but man people tore them to absolute shreds here for daring to do something different with it/not make it paleo accurate, and that was their first real foray until the market. Not the kind of welcoming party I'd want if I was a new company. I'm honestly shocked they stuck around after that. This certainly isn't the only circumstance, rather with them or other companies (see below).

Even I had considered leaving at some times, feeling unwelcome due to my interest in the Jurassic movies and species designs, particularly here when there was a lot of dismissal etc going on prior to FK releasing that I recall. I can't imagine anyone that had no particular interest or understanding of the scientific stuff would feel very much welcome either, however they find dinosaurs appealing (especially if they prefer retro styled, or awesomebro, whatever). I think after Mattel released their figures, that sentiment kind of changed, because they were like a sort of revival of the praised Kenner stuff, and there is at least quite a few of us here that collect them. Schleich also gets the brunt of it every single year. I see there's some (young) fans here that enjoy them, and I imagine the countless berating (which I'm sure I participated in at times), probably doesn't help them feel welcome either. Let's not forget about how Doug is less interactive here too because of the constant criticism his sculpts get, despite his models being some of the best on the market still as far as paleo accuracy goes, least at the time they were originally discovered and no major discoveries drastically changes something (like Spinosaurus for example), but that's certainly not his fault. Yes I know I'm guilty of that as well at times, but some folks are also just much more harsh then need be. There's also Haolonggood's recent Ouranosaurus. It got some things wrong yes, like the hands, but it was still an otherwise beautiful figure of a genus folks have been wanting a figure of (or more) for so many years now. Would it have better if the hands were right from the start? Sure, but we are very lucky they chose to revise it so quickly and release it, and that they were so receptive in the first place to the criticism, and like not just pack their bags here and leave.

While I do think focusing on if the anatomy of an animal is good food for reviews, and discussion at times, I don't think the average collector is going to be concerned with every little particular anatomical detail, as long as it is generally recognizable, like say Rebor's Diplodocus. The average collector that isn't in the know is going to understand that the musculature is wrong (like I didn't). They may or may not be aware if the feet are correct or not (like I was) etc, or other details (like the skin, which I'm not as familiar with). Point is, it still looks something like a Diplodocus. Honestly it's also hard for me with my autism to understand papers and other anatomical discussion at times. It was even worse when I was new and there was all these scientific terms being used that I had no prior understanding of. It was like some kind of secret code, and I wasn't in on it. Accessibility with papers is another thing. Some stuff just straight up isn't accessible, rather it be behind a paywall, or it isn't readily available online (like in my case). What might be readily available in the west, might not be so in the east, and vice versa, or other things. Again learning disabilities make this stuff hard for folks too. Like I'm a visual learner. I need images to get a better understanding of things. Lots of text like in a scientific paper can feel overwhelming, and daunting for folks like me. Attention span is another factor too. I just don't simply have it at times. Or the depression, with brain fog, lack of energy, interest etc, can make reading those things a real chore at times, with little reward only that I've learned something new, that I may or may not retain.

Honestly this discussion was kind of a wake up call for me, since I know I've since come to participate in some of the constant nitpicking, as a result of trying to blend in with the crowd, etc. The peer pressure sort of effect, whatever. I think going forward I will try to be more reserved and keep some of those negative, or nitpicky thoughts to myself, despite the challenges of being autistic, where I might get a bit too emotional, etc at times.

[Leyster]

One thing that I think got misunderstood here (dunno if it changes something, but it had to be clarified): my first post in that discussion was not a reply to Rebor. Rebor's post was in the previous page (page 7) and they didn't @ me, so their question was completely ignored by me. My answer spun from SidB's @, and then Faelrin's and Blade-of-the-Moon's posts that followed.


But about accuracy, I want to point out one thing: first REBOR said they have a vet in the team and all the stuff about gettin the accuracy of the muscles right, including a 30 days study time

imb muscles: I'm pretty sure we know how muscles work and are experts in animal anatomy cus we have a surgeon and a vet in our team, remember we made the Compsognathus Dissection Specimen with a chart showing each and every organ? FYI our diplodocus was built muscle by muscle and we can name and pinpoint every single one of them, the sculpt took us 90 days to finish and the first 30 days was the research period,

The problem is this: if you do pop culture dinosaur models, or drawings, or whatever, accuracy to the real thing has nothing to do with them. After all, no one said anything about their Disney-inspired Carnotaurus... even if you might still have to deal with fans of said pop culture media lamenting about the accuracy to what's seen on the movie (or whatever the media is).
But in the moment you claim your work is accurated, that you researcher 30 days and such, you'll have to consider that claim will be tested. After all, claims are not there to be undisputed. This:

we are not opening to any form of suggestions or criticisms whether they are correct or incorrect, friendly or unfriendly, constructive or destructive cus we want to make our works 100% ours and we don't want people steal our fun.

is not possibile if you claim your work is accurate, because accuracy need a comparison by default.

1. The state of being accurate; being free from error; exactness; correctness
2. Exact conformity to truth, or to a rule or model; degree of conformity of a measure to a true or standard value

. You need that comparison, that conformity to a true or standard value the definition metions. And in paleontology the test of accuracy are papers, the work of people which actually study the remains of these animals. You can't say this is "talking rubbish to our months long hard works using accuracy as an excuse", because it's you who claimed you worked on its accuracy first and foremost.
Then they themselves said the models are not 100% accurate:

You need to understand we never said that our diplodocus, or T-Rex Kiss, or the upcoming Giganotosauru is 100% acccurate and we did add lots of personal preference to our sculpts making them stylised palaeoart pieces rather than faith representation of those animals.

The more I re-read the conversation, the more I think something is wrong at the very beginning. Why such a fuss when my very first post was a simple statement that the Diplodocus was not accurate, then? In the post I quoted right above, they agree with me. The Diplodocus is not accurate. Why require an explanation, if the model itself was not accurate? They should have agreed with me. They said the Diplodocus is not accurate, I said the Diplodocus is not accurate. The only difference is that I did it two pages before them. The argument should never have began. Why start arguing, then? Why ask me to elaborate? If you knew for the very beginning it's not accurate, I have nothing to explain you. You answer something like "Yes, we never aimed for accuracy with this one" or "Yeah, we steered away from accuracy so that it looked cooler in our eyes", or something along this road. You do not ask to elaborate the reasons why is not accurate if you already know that is not.

[SidB]

To comment on their assertion that attending to constructive criticism would spoil their 'fun', because they by self definition make fully accurate models in house is, well, a bit breathtaking. There's so much that can be said to that that, that it's best to say nothing. Obviously there's nothing to be gained by further discussion/ argumentation. Regardless of what one thinks about such, obviously Rebor will do their own thing. My approach is to take their products for what they are: from fantasy to semi- even quite accurate, though not necessarily the most accurate, since they are more than a bit of a law unto themselves, which is okay with me, since they make some really interesting items, which I occasionally buy for several  reasons typically, without considering these as necessarily the most accurate, but interesting for other reasons. Sometimes that might include the category " accurate enough" plus other reasons to purchase.

[stargatedalek]

In a way I'm not surprised Rebor does get aggressively defensive at times, not that I fully agree with it, but, again I'm not particularly surprised. I remember that Yutyrannus not being fully feathered, plus the name choice, and sure it's not my cup of tea, because the full feathers is part of the appeal for me, but man people tore them to absolute shreds here for daring to do something different with it/not make it paleo accurate, and that was their first real foray until the market. Not the kind of welcoming party I'd want if I was a new company. I'm honestly shocked they stuck around after that. This certainly isn't the only circumstance, rather with them or other companies (see below).

I don't care what they choose to name a Yutyrannus or how many feathers they give it. What I care about is companies lying. And when a company is allowed to waltz in here and lie to our faces it's insulting, plain and simple.

They did the whole "we have an expert who spent months researching" schtick with the Yutyrannus back in the day. Claimed it was "museum approved" and all that gibberish. Whole spiel about how perfect it was. That is why people were angry.

[Faelrin]

@stargatedalek You've made some very good points about that. Thanks for the correction, as it has been quite a while since I last read that thread, so I probably forgot those details. That definitely would get people frustrated for sure, as the recent stuff with this Diplodocus has.

Edit: I have to wonder why they've fallen back into being aggressive as of late? Weren't they like behaving kind of better recently?

[Lynx]

So, it's not just about Rebor's work, it's more about helping people better understand these animals and the figures in their hands, which is the very reason this forum exists.

I hope I did the quotes right
I'm not sure about anyone else, and ofc not to stir the pot, but I thought this forum exists for talking about dinosaur toys


On another note, I feel like I've been too nitpicky myself. I've gotten into arguments with people over toy dinosaurs, and other silly small things. I've tried to just appreciate figures for what they are and stay out of things as of recent.


I've started to just appreciate that these things are, for me at least, toys. I buy what I want now, and I've realized I don't need to get whatever is most accurate or most popular. Maybe the Papo stegosaurus isn't the best, but it is what is most fun for me, and what I'd like the most.
Maybe this means I've taken a more casual route and don't really feel like going all out on accuracy and pitch perfect quality, but I'll be honest, I'm happy with my Schleich, my Papo, and my Safari figures. Ive stopped feeling like I need to constantly keep up, or that a figure needs to be at its best, or that I need to nitpick everything. These figures are what I enjoy, regardless of how accurate it is, how good the paint quality remains, etc. Not to say these factors aren't important for some, even most, maybe, but I don't know, I've just changed my pace.

Now that I'm done with this I realized I've gotten completely off topic but still 🤷

[ceratopsian]

Like many here, I feel the tone can become a little strident and aggressive and there is an occasional tendency to "nitpick". We can get very hung up and repetitive about pet themes or dislikes.

However, when any line advertises its wares as well researched models I like to read discussion of how closely it reflects current understanding of the animal it depicts. But that desire to know is academic rather than something that will necessarily guide my decision on purchasing. My purchases are based much more, though not exclusively, on aesthetics. For instance, while I was interested to read of any "issues" with recent Haolonggood models, I bought both colour variants of every single one. I never planned to buy the Rebor Diplodocus but that is purely for aesthetic reasons, not because of anything I read here.

It's hard to strike a balance between coming across as negative and delving into the palaeontology of the animal represented. I think part of the problem is inherent in the online medium. Tone is lost and the bare words on the page do not necessarily convey the writer's full opinion of the model. It's a very shorthand form of communication. This can be compounded by the fact that quite a few here are writing in a foreign language, and nuance can be lost. Posting here is not the same as energetic and lively face to face interaction.

Bottom line for me. Politeness goes a long way and considering a moment before posting to check the perceived tone of what has been written is always a good idea. But personally I'm curious always about discussing and learning palaeontology. We are all individuals whose views on how and why we collect are not homogeneous. For me, the Forum should be a broad enough church to include a broad range of collectors.

[PumperKrickel]

What I find interesting is that the interest in accuracy for a lot of people stops at pointing out the shortcomings of a figure. Maybe the tone would be perceived as much less harsh if the things that are correct would be equally highlighted.

Of course this whole debate isn't new and there's unlikely to be any meaningful change. Anyone who is bothered by the negativity is probably better off avoiding certain threads.

[SidB]

What I find interesting is that the interest in accuracy for a lot of people stops at pointing out the shortcomings of a figure. Maybe the tone would be perceived as much less harsh if the things that are correct would be equally highlighted.

Of course this whole debate isn't new and there's unlikely to be any meaningful change. Anyone who is bothered by the negativity is probably better off avoiding certain threads.

That reminds me of the words of Harry Truman, the U.S. President in the late 1940's: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

[Faelrin]

I mean aside from the obvious Rebor and controversial threads, it does happen quite a bit in the new for yearly threads as well, if not elsewhere.

I'm not sure that I agree that the answer for folks uncomfortable with whatever drama, negativity, etc anywhere on the forum here should be told just to pack their bags and leave (for certain threads or otherwise), especially when it might seep into threads that one shouldn't expect a problem in, such as just coming to check for the latest releases (assuming op isn't updated). I think something should be done to make this place feel more welcoming, rather that requires more introspection among the members here (including myself, as mentioned in my massive post above), or more stringant moderation.

I do recall some members (new and old) being burnt out on the negativity, etc that happens here, and leaving, and while this is like miles away from drama elsewhere (like compared to the skyrim modding scene I participate in occasionally, this is miles tamer then that), it can be still too much for some folks.

[Lynx]

I don't see why people should just ignore it/leave if they don't want to deal with it. While this can very well be a solution, it often just makes things worse. Why encourage people to leave when attempts can instead be made to improve the community? Ignoring something will never make it better.

[Sim]

Lynx, I may have been wrong in what I thought about you, I have noticed you have been thoughtful.  In response to your post, I have started ignoring abusive posts as it's either do that or leave this forum, and I don't want to leave.  I have reported abusive posts and I think I've even asked if I should deal with them myself or if it's correct to report them and I've received no reply.  And nothing has been done about the abuse, as far as I'm aware.

[PumperKrickel]

I don't see why people should just ignore it/leave if they don't want to deal with it. While this can very well be a solution, it often just makes things worse. Why encourage people to leave when attempts can instead be made to improve the community? Ignoring something will never make it better.

A few years ago I started several discussions about the abundant negativity and nitpicking. Back then it was mostly contained in Schleich threads, making them very difficult to enjoy. People mostly agreed and vowed to either be more constructive in their criticism or to simply not post in threads they didn't care for.

The fact that we're having this discussion again shows that whatever positive adjustments happened back then didn't last. Unless there are some dramatic changes in how this forum operates, they can't last.

[suspsy]

I'm gonna be honest: I think it's quite unrealistic to expect this forum to always be peaceful and pleasant. Human nature doesn't change, after all. There's always going to be the occasional blowup over this topic and that one. And if people feel strongly about something, they should always feel that they can speak out here. And if language gets out of hand, well, the mods continue to be pretty good at their jobs. Bottom line: the DTF is still head, shoulders, and buttocks above any Facebook group in terms of good behaviour. It's superior to a great many online toy forums for that matter. You want to see real hostility, try joining a Star Wars or a Star Trek or a LEGO or a Barbie or a My Little Pony forum sometime.