Controversial opinions on dinosaur toys

[SRF]

Since Kiss is sold out completely, can we even call it a mass produced figure to begin with?

Also, you make a strong case @Baryonyx. I also like Wilson's pose more than that of Kiss/Tusk.

All in all I think that if I would make a list of all the pros and cons of Wilson and Kiss/Tusk, neither of these would come out as the undoubtedly best Tyrannosaurus figure. All three are very good figures. I for one keep going back and forth which one I prefer myself.

[Duna]

Despite scales/lips, the enduring success of Wilson is the extremely subtle pose, that embues the figure with life.

Sorry, but I see nothing of that in Wilson's figure. The ejecution is very unrealistic, the back stride is malpositioned, too back, too low the ankle, it just looks it's going to trip over. Level the tail (as a real animal would do), correct the ankle and foot position and you would have a nice dinamic pose but well executed. Then I would agree in that. You have a very good example in the reconstruction of real sized Sue. But at the moment I can't see positively "a different pose from the typical walking" with such execution. No way. The same reason I can't forsee the broken "sausage" leg of Andrea in spite of her beautiful integument in contrast with her corn-cob mate.
PNSO realized and did a very good job with that and made something so different with the pose. That's why I positively think they will update the other figure.

[Leyster]

@Duna on PaleoNerd we had an actual paleoartist interviewed about Wilson, and he had nothing to say about the pose. Maybe the issue is something you only see. Also, Andrea's leg is perfectly possible, we found pictures of ostriches doing similar poses, so...

[SidB]

@Duna on PaleoNerd we had an actual paleoartist interviewed about Wilson, and he had nothing to say about the pose. Maybe the issue is in your eyes only. Also, Andrea's leg is perfectly possible, we found pictures of ostriches doing similar poses, so...

This is a major reason that I stick with the DTF - actual paleontologists giving real world information. As amateurs, however passionate we may be about the hobby of collecting, we are often vulnerable to accepting vigorously asserted opinions as actual truth, as opposed to real knowledge, or at least as close as we can get to it, by seasoned, experienced professionals. 'Winter Wilson" has taken quite a beating on the DTF over the last while, and though I do agree that it can be improved upon in at least a couple of ways, it is by no means as bad a sculpt as more than a few people would indicate. In fact, it's very good, not that it couldn't be improved.

Also, I wonder how many sales Andrea has lost from DTF members, simply because some people accept as chiseled in stone the opinion that the legs position is completely impossible. PNSO does make mistakes, but by no means as many as some people think. The PNSO research and sculpting is not carried out by dullards, or people who are hung over after a wild night out (as far as I know).

I think that we're really in an advantageous position to have as many technically adept people here on the forum as we do, BUT there's still a gap between the dedicated, knowledgeable amateur and the proven professional as such.

[Lynx]

I will be blatant, 90% of the time I notice nothing wrong with a PNSO figure until somebody points it out.

[Sim]

[...]
The PNSO research and sculpting is not carried out by [...] people who are hung over after a wild night out (as far as I know).
[...]

Hmm, I wonder if hung-over sculpting is responsible for the weird Schleich, Papo and Mattel figures?

As for the newest Wilson, I've looked at it again and I think @stargatedalek is right that some of its teeth are hanging out of the sockets.  I wonder if PNSO will make a new Wilson that corrects this.  It could be an opportunity to improve the integument too, and the jaw articulation.  I've seen on Everything Dinosaur that the newest Wilson and Essien are ranked as number two and three of the best-selling PNSO figures (after Sede who is number one).  PNSO cared enough about the Ankylosaurus to improve its paintjob after it got overly dull.  I wonder if the sales of Wilson and Essien will make PNSO want to make an accurate Wilson and larger, accurate Essien?  Or whether it will make them want to stick with the latest versions of them?

[SidB]

[...]
The PNSO research and sculpting is not carried out by [...] people who are hung over after a wild night out (as far as I know).
[...]

Hmm, I wonder if hung-over sculpting is responsible for the weird Schleich, Papo and Mattel figures?

As for the newest Wilson, I've looked at it again and I think @stargatedalek is right that some of its teeth are hanging out of the sockets.  I wonder if PNSO will make a new Wilson that corrects this.  It could be an opportunity to improve the integument too, and the jaw articulation.  I've seen on Everything Dinosaur that the newest Wilson and Essien are ranked as number two and three of the best-selling PNSO figures (after Sede who is number one).  PNSO cared enough about the Ankylosaurus to improve its paintjob after it got overly dull.  I wonder if the sales of Wilson and Essien will make PNSO want to make an accurate Wilson and larger, accurate Essien?  Or whether it will make them want to stick with the latest versions of them?

Normally, I'd simply say that inertia wins the day, so don't expect a change, but I hesitate to label PNSO this way - they've been pretty quick to produce successive Wilsons, so we might just get another one sooner than later. Integument, teeth ... sure, and likely enough new posture would all seem inevitable, though I'm not holding my breath on lips (no pun intended).

As for inebriation and design ... hmmm, maybe that is an idea that could be brought forward to account for some of those that you mentioned. The only positive to draw from that would be that it would serve as an excuse. Take that away, what's left: incompetence and laziness.

[Duna]

@DunaAndrea's leg is perfectly possible, we found pictures of ostriches doing similar poses, so...

No. The pose is similar, but not (again) the execution. The knee should have been higher in position (more similar to what ostriches do), but putting it so low left very few space to the floor for the rest of the leg so they had to compress it in a rope way. If they had put the thigh with the knee pointed a bit upwards, they wouldn't have had this problem.

[Leyster]

@DunaAndrea's leg is perfectly possible, we found pictures of ostriches doing similar poses, so...

No. The pose is similar, but not (again) the execution. The knee should have been higher in position (more similar to what ostriches do), but putting it so low left very few space to the floor for the rest of the leg so they had to compress it in a rope way. If they had put the thigh with the knee pointed a bit upwards, they wouldn't have had this problem.

Keep in mind soft tissue are involved, so in the PNSO model it looks closer than when seeing just the bones.

[CARN0TAURUS]

[...]
The PNSO research and sculpting is not carried out by [...] people who are hung over after a wild night out (as far as I know).
[...]

Hmm, I wonder if hung-over sculpting is responsible for the weird Schleich, Papo and Mattel figures?

As for the newest Wilson, I've looked at it again and I think @stargatedalek is right that some of its teeth are hanging out of the sockets.  I wonder if PNSO will make a new Wilson that corrects this.  It could be an opportunity to improve the integument too, and the jaw articulation.  I've seen on Everything Dinosaur that the newest Wilson and Essien are ranked as number two and three of the best-selling PNSO figures (after Sede who is number one).  PNSO cared enough about the Ankylosaurus to improve its paintjob after it got overly dull.  I wonder if the sales of Wilson and Essien will make PNSO want to make an accurate Wilson and larger, accurate Essien?  Or whether it will make them want to stick with the latest versions of them?

The teeth ARE ridiculously gigantic and yes completely slipping out of their sockets, the teeth in the lower jaw are about the correct size he should have in the upper jaw.  As for the way he appears to be walking it looks like he stepped into the path of his left foot with his right foot, like he's walking a tight rope.  PNSO was trying to replicate a natural walking motion for a two legged animal.  What they failed to do with winter wilson they succeeded in doing with gamba and have perfected with chubby saurus and other theropods since.  But forget the awkward pose, wilson has some serious "clown feet".

Perhaps Winter Wilson represents the best of PNSO's early approach to figures, but that leaves him completely outclassed by the new approach figures.  With his oversized scales, teeth, and feet he just doesn't fit into the current lineup.  And IMO a pose that doesn't look natural like most of the poses their theropods have had since. 

There are things I like about wilson, I like his dark color scheme with very subtle stripe patterns, I like how his forelimbs are modeled, I like the shape of the head sculpt and neck, although I'm not a fan of how they engineered the articulation.   Like the overall size and shape of his neck, chest, and tail too.

PNSO hasn't always made figures based on money, it seems like they've resculpted figures before their shelf life and money earning potential had expired.  I hope that becomes the case with Wilson, a new Wilson with the great natural pose treatment that they gave tubbysaurus and Zhuchengtyrannus and the refined beauty of this latest lucas figure and the next PNSO T-rex is going to be an ICONIC figure amongst collectors.

[CARN0TAURUS]

@Duna on PaleoNerd we had an actual paleoartist interviewed about Wilson, and he had nothing to say about the pose. Maybe the issue is something you only see. Also, Andrea's leg is perfectly possible, we found pictures of ostriches doing similar poses, so...

Ostrich legs are built totally different, the proportions of the bones are way off, their heels and ankles are way higher than on tyrannosaur skeletons.  And they don't weigh as much as an elephant either.  PNSO went against their own illustrations and animation of a T-rex standing up from a sitting position when they built Andrea, there was definitely a weird disconnect between their own research and the figure.

[Leyster]

@CARN0TAURUS do you understand, I hope, that ostriches do not sit in a single way? In fact, you can find them sitting in a very variety of crazy ways. Neither did Tyrannosaurus, probably, so drawing them in a way do not prevent them to sit in another one...



(I can't find them ATM, but I swear there are ones with the legs pointing sideway, others with the legs straight behind them...)

As for the way he appears to be walking it looks like he stepped into the path of his left foot with his right foot, like he's walking a tight rope.

Here, have real footprints:

But forget the awkward pose, wilson has some serious "clown feet".

In fact Tyrannosaurus' third digit is more or less as long as the third metatarsal, which are again  a bit less than half the femur lenght, just like the PNSO figure (see Brochu, 2003).

Seriously, this whole thing is bordering ridiculous, you all are litterally going against what an actual paleoartist (who probably drew Tyrannosaurus more times than you can ever count) said, it reminds me of guys on Facebook trying to say that the BOTM Tyrannosaurus is bad when Mark Witton (!) reviewed it positively. Sorry if I stick with people which studied these animals.

[Lynx]

Honestly, Andrea would probably be more popular without the negativity here IMO, the model wasn't amazing but the things poor Andrea has been told, dear lord.

[Leyster]

@Lynx I second this.

[Sim]

Thanks L @Leyster for the footprint images, they helped me learn something new.

[dinofelid]

I don't particularly like Rebor's Kiss and Tusk. 

Yeah, my main issue is that to me they look a little too Jurassic Parkish in the area of the eyes, I think it's a combination of the orbital crests being slanted giving it a bit of an "angry eyebrows" look (more so than say the Prehistoric Planet Rex, or PNSO's Wilson, or the Blue Rhino Rex that Rebor obviously took some inspiration from), along with the eyes being a little more sunken than in the other models I mentioned, and having darker skin around them (especially in Tusk) giving them that Jurassic Park "eyeshadow" look. Also the closeup at the 45 second mark of the Kiss video below seems to show one corner of the eye (the canthus) is much higher than the other, you see that occasionally in real animals but I think the vast majority have them about level with each other in normal head posture, that's another thing it has in common with the Jurassic Park rex which was probably done to make it look a little more sinister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ewehvP9Ks&t=45s

I also think the latest Rebor Triceratopses have a lot of the same issues with the details in the eye area being a little too "monster-y" to me, fortunately the upcoming Diplodocus models don't seem to have those issues.

[Gwangi]

I don't particularly like Rebor's Kiss and Tusk. 

Yeah, my main issue is that to me they look a little too Jurassic Parkish in the area of the eyes, I think it's a combination of the orbital crests being slanted giving it a bit of an "angry eyebrows" look (more so than say the Prehistoric Planet Rex, or PNSO's Wilson, or the Blue Rhino Rex that Rebor obviously took some inspiration from), along with the eyes being a little more sunken than in the other models I mentioned, and having darker skin around them (especially in Tusk) giving them that Jurassic Park "eyeshadow" look. Also the closeup at the 45 second mark of the Kiss video below seems to show one corner of the eye (the canthus) is much higher than the other, you see that occasionally in real animals but I think the vast majority have them about level with each other in normal head posture, that's another thing it has in common with the Jurassic Park rex which was probably done to make it look a little more sinister.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81ewehvP9Ks&t=45s

I also think the latest Rebor Triceratopses have a lot of the same issues with the details in the eye area being a little too "monster-y" to me, fortunately the upcoming Diplodocus models don't seem to have those issues.

The angry brow is definitely a factor. There's also something going on with the jaw that I can't quite place. It looks too weak and shallow or something. Kind of underdeveloped I guess. It's still a great T. rex, and so is Wilson, but with how often we get T. rex figures I can afford to be choosey.

I actually really like the Rebor Triceratops. I realize it's stylized but it's done in a way that I find appealing.

[CARN0TAURUS]

@CARN0TAURUS do you understand, I hope, that ostriches do not sit in a single way? In fact, you can find them sitting in a very variety of crazy ways. Neither did Tyrannosaurus, probably, so drawing them in a way do not prevent them to sit in another one...



(I can't find them ATM, but I swear there are ones with the legs pointing sideway, others with the legs straight behind them...)

As for the way he appears to be walking it looks like he stepped into the path of his left foot with his right foot, like he's walking a tight rope.

Here, have real footprints:

But forget the awkward pose, wilson has some serious "clown feet".

In fact Tyrannosaurus' third digit is more or less as long as the third metatarsal, which are again  a bit less than half the femur lenght, just like the PNSO figure (see Brochu, 2003).

Seriously, this whole thing is bordering ridiculous, you all are litterally going against what an actual paleoartist (who probably drew Tyrannosaurus more times than you can ever count) said, it reminds me of guys on Facebook trying to say that the BOTM Tyrannosaurus is bad when Mark Witton (!) reviewed it positively. Sorry if I stick with people which studied these animals.

I noticed you didn't touch two points I made in my post.  Ostrich legs are constructed completely different than T-rex legs, the bones are not in proportion to each other in the least.  One animal is made for running very fast and the other had to bear the weight of a full grown elephant on two legs.  A lighter animal is going to be able to bend and move in ways an elephant can't.  It's just physics and gravity.  I'm no expert, I've been pretty outspoken about that here and I defer to folks such as yourself that you know more about this than I ever will, but I also believe there is a way to get your point across without the condescending behavior. 

Even the worlds foremost dinosaur expert could use a full dose of humility in this respect.  Because even that person, as much as they may know about these animals and that person will know a lot more than most people on earth but in the grand scheme of things even that person is still going to know very little about the actual dinosaurs.  If the sum total of what we know about these animals fills a cup, what we don't know would fill several grand canyons combined.  I think it's comical that even these so called experts are constantly arguing and discrediting each other.  You know more than I but truth is neither one of us knows how a T-rex lay down or sat down or whatever.  We have general ideas and theories BUT, big but, nobody knows for sure.

[CARN0TAURUS]

Honestly, Andrea would probably be more popular without the negativity here IMO, the model wasn't amazing but the things poor Andrea has been told, dear lord.

I respectfully disagree with you on this one.  I find this type of post divisive and I fail to see how this sort of talk benefits this community.  I bought an Andrea even though I wasn't crazy about it.  If only because I wished to support PNSO doing something unconventional and different.  But IMO it's not a good pose and a subpar figure from them.  The fact that she didn't sell is telling because people vote with their wallets.  No amount of negative posts are going to keep people from buying something that pleases them.  I've read negative stuff on here about many figures that have ultimately sold well. 

Andrea is just strange looking.  I think they can do much better with these types of poses.  Hopefully we'll see more because there is no reason a resting pose wouldn't sell if it was done in a way that pleases the eye more than Andrea does.  I own it and I don't care for it very much, forget the legs and everything else, there is just something off and for me personally it's just not that fun to look at. 

[Lynx]

I don't doubt she's strange, but, for me, thus why this is an OPINIONS thread, I was really looking to get the figure, but was severely put off after what people said. The same goes for many other figures, like the Schleich Gallimimus and the Papo Concavenator I really loved when they were revealed, but thanks to overwhelming negativity, was put off.

I find this type of post divisive and I fail to see how this sort of talk benefits this community.

This is the reason why, once again, I am talking about this in THIS THREAD and not some other one that is supposed to be beneficial. I don't see how this is hostile at all, just saying there's a good chance the general negativity may have put others off from buying the figure.

I do admit the post seems a bit accusing, however, things did go a little overboard in response to Andrea in my opinion.

Respectfully, I have dove into similar topics far too many times, so I won't go much farther in-depth than this.