U.K.R.D dinosaurs

[Duna]

(PIC HEAVY, you can click and enlarge any picture you want) UPDATED JANUARY 2022

Most of the pictures are mine or taken from eBay or similar. Credit goes to the authors, if the pic is yours and you want me to take it off or appear in the credit of the photo I'll do it with no problem.


I've been trying to complete my childhood dinosaur collections and my first figure was the UKRD 1992 Pteranodon, followed by 3 figures from 1993. In fact I was unaware of the company UKRD until I saw some months ago a review in the blog, and I realised I had a few figures of that brand. I never realised of the brand in the stamp.
But now I must admit I've become quite an expert. 

I have learnt a lot last year while searching for UKRD dinosaurs so I would like to share it with you all collectors. If you find more information or see something innacurate in the thread, please tell me so I can modify it. For more information of the brand, check also https://www.dinotoycollector.com/company/UKRD.php and http://www.dinosaurcollectorsitea.com/UKRD.htm


HISTORY
It's very little known about this chinese company but it's obvious that is directly linked to DOR MEI. DOR MEI was a Chinese company known more for its Godzilla and other rubber monsters from the 70-80s but it also had some dinosaur monster figures. The 1978 collection is the classic depiction of roaring-chinasaurs. But in 1986 some nicer figures under both DOR MEI and UKRD stamps were released. So here comes the question: did Dor Mei only change name or did both companies merge?


DOR MEI 1978:

This was the last collection of DOR MEI by itself. This is the classic depiction of -roaring full of teeth- figures, widely spread in the 80s chinasaurs and hong-kongsaurs. On the belly only appeared: CHINA 1978 and the name of the dinosaur. They were made of quite soft rubber with a paint that has a high content of heavy metals in levels that would be forbidden today, as most Chinasaurs and other toys from the 80s. They are not safe for children to play because of the risk they could chew or put them into their mouths, but make very nice vintage retro pieces for collectors.





DOR MEI - UKRD 1986

The 1986 collection was the first to have the U.K.R.D. stamp along with the DOR MEI in most of the figures. I haven't seen pictures of all of them, but for example, in the Brontosaurus, only DOR MEI appears. In the rest, on the longer figures, there are two stamp areas: one on the belly, between the front legs (that says DOR MEI CHINA) and another between the back legs (says UKRD, a code number and the name of the species). On the shorter ones, all the information is crampled in the same area.
There is another surprise as some figures seem to be made in Hong Kong, as the blue and yellow Stegosaurus but not the green and red one. Some also have a letter, as Stegosaurus (A).
The rubber and also the paint on these figures is high in heavy metals (specially lead and cadmium), too as most from the 80s and like its DOR MEI predecesors. Do not let small children put them into their mouths.
These figures are very alike the IMPERIAL ones from about the same time. Some of them are quite difficult to tell apart. Imperial Prehistorics

The collection has 9 figures (I still haven't found any pictures of the Dimetrodon that is stated in some collector pages, I think they refer to Spinosaurus) and most of them have 2 colour versions:
- Brontosaurus
- Tyrannosaurus
- Styracosaurus (one of the best in the collection).
- Brachiosaurus
- Stegosaurus
- Triceratops
- Spinosaurus and Edaphosaurus share the same mold, but with different name written on the belly. Spino looks more like a Dimetrodon.
- Edaphosaurus.
- Ankylosaurus.





XXL 1991-1992 FIGURES

There are some extra large hollow figures (tallest at about 25 cm) released before 1991 and nicely sculpted.  They are hollow as other Dor Mei but some have the same sculpt and even colours as the later UKRD 1991 large (Museum Line). These figures are as rare as a green dog nowadays, and sometimes you can find a pachycephalosaurus or a plateosaurus here or there.
Same year (second picture) (it's incredible that two collections of this size were released the same year) the XXL hollow figures were released again with slight modifications in the sculpture, but are very much alike. On the belly only says "Made in China" and 1991. You can see some differences: for example, the pachycephalosaurus is slimmer and has the arms in different pose, same as the parasaurolophus (which has a change in the crest, too), the hands in the plateosaurus are different, there seems to be a ceratosaurus, too. I don't really know how many species made the collection, but at least I have identified:
- Pachycephalosaurus
- Plateosaurus (a very nice model and a discontinued species in the rest of the years)
- Stegosaurus
- Styracosaurus
- Pteranodon (says 1992 in its stamp, and same sculpt as the 1992 large, but much larger (22 cm)

You can compare them with the "small" yellow bellied tyrannosaurus from the 1991 large (museum line) solid rubber collection.







1991 MUSEUM LINE - LARGE FIGURES

In the 90s, the toxic paint was gone for good and also the DOR MEI stamp forever.
The 1991 Museum Line was one of the best from this brand. The figures were no longer hollow, but made of solid rubber. They are indeed big and very heavy (Tyrannosaurus and Brachiosaurus weigh more than 400 gr each). The figures have a wrinkled skin and some of them are obviously inspired in John Sibbick's artwork, even with the same colors (i.e Allosaurus).
They have the name of the company U.K.R.D. stamped on the belly, the year of fabrication 1991, a code number (not in the first molds) and an alphabet letter followed by the name of the species.

There are three paint schemes which I nickname:
- First version, most have light-cream base color with darker top. The colors are earthy and neutral and nails are painted in dark grey. I'm almost sure this was the first version because the earlier figures of these colours have no code number. As you see in the picture, they seem to have modified the mold after to put the UKRD stamp (maybe they forgot and then they realised?).
There are at least two more different paint schemes for these figures: a yellow with dark spots brachiosaurus and a black and dark green tyrannosaurus.
- "Blue nails", a more colourful version with light blue nails. It was probably released at the same time or very shortly after the others, as most collections I've found had figures from the two collections. The colours are brighter, using green, red, blue, orange ... I found this collection to be more common in Europe, specially in France.
- Same colourful version but on a bright and shiny light blue base. I believe these are posterior molds. Some even display the year 1997.

UKRD 1991 dinosaur collection "Earthy-tones" (dark grey nails)








UKRD 1991 colourful "Blue nails". Yep, all have them. There is another version of the Dimetrodon in blue with black spots (without the red). Brachiosaurus and protoceratops have a wonderful metallic blue coat.








The inspiration in Sibbick's art is so evident that these figures have the same posture and sculpture and even the colour (allosaurus) of his drawings for the Encyclopaedia of Dinosaurs. They are so alike that Sibbick's Allosaurus has a bump in front of the eyes that is copied in the 1991 and 1992 figures, but wouldn't have allowed the animal to see ahead of it. Apatosaurus and triceratops are very alike Sibbick's drawings, too.

 


The list of figures is (earlier figures of earthy coloured versions lack code numbers):
A Brachiosaurus 2022251
B Ankylosaurus 2022253
C Pachycephalosaurus 2022250
D Triceratops 2022248
E Parasaurolophus 2022245
F Edmontosaurus (no code)
G Apatosaurus 2022243
H Tyrannosaurus 2022247
I Stegosaurus 2022249
J Allosaurus 2022244
K Dimetrodon 2022242
L Protoceratops 2022246


Three different versions of the "earthy-tones". Note their "grey" nails.


UKRD 1992 LINE - LARGE FIGURES:

In 1992, another set of 12 solid rubber figures was released, with a slightly different sculpt. The size decreased noticeably, but most of them are obviously inspired in the larger version of 1991 (pachycephalosaurus, brachiosaurus, stegosaurus, allosaurus and parasaurolophus). The rest are totally different sculpts or new species (iguanodon), because the pteranodon was based in the XXL previous figure. Most of them have a plain color palette on two colors and some of them are inspired in the colours of the 1991 blue-nailed version.
On the belly they have the name of the company U.K.R.D., the CE European symbol, a series number for each species, the year of fabrication 1992 and an alphabet letter followed by the name of the species.
In this page it says that there is a Velociraptor too, but I've not seen any real pictures of that figure appart from that, and that would mean there are 13 figures and that would be so rare. Edmontosaurus and Protoceratops have disappeared in this series, but edmontosaurus will return for 1993.
This series is the easiest to find on sale. There is a later release by other company in a pack called "Dinosaur Habitat", which had four figures (tyrannosaurus, brachiosaurus, triceratops and stegosaurus), a plastic palm tree and a cloth mat to play with them.
They seem to be sold in packages like this at least by the famous TOYWAY in UK. They claimed to be "MUSEUM QUALITY", and this may be not exact, but they were nice figures.





The 12 figures are:
A Tyrannosaurus
B Stegosaurus
C Edmontosaurus
D Apatosaurus
E Parasaurolophus
F Pteranodon
G Dimetrodon
H Ankylosaurus
I Pachycephalosaurus
J Triceratops
K Brachiosaurus
L Iguanodon


UKRD 1992 DINOSAUR SKELETONS

This 1992 line was incredible in its variety, with another set of 12 skeleton figures that corresponded to the very same other figures. The skeletons came alone in individual packages, or packaged along with the figure they corresponded to. The rarest figure is the Pteranodon (I haven't seen any) probably because of its fragility.
There are many tones of the bones, some are white, others white with dark wash and others cream and yellowish cream. The skeletons are poorly done, not resembling at all the real thing, but more like the figure they correspond to. This is a "nice" thing because there are other posterior skeleton collections that are very alike, but are not from UKRD (or at least we don't know). They are easy to tell appart because in these other sets the skeletons are much better done. If you see an styracosaurus, oviraptor or dilophosaurs in the set, they are not the UKRD 1992 version.




The very alike in size other later skeletons that are much better sculpted but are not from UKRD. In the left, the UKRD skeleton. You can check these similar other skeleton collections (12 in total, too) in here.




In 1993 FUNRISE released these packages with the UKRD figures, called "Jurassic Age Dinosaur skeletons". They came with the corresponding figure or just the skeletons on their own:




The back of the card claimed that the figures were unbreakable (yes, they are very sturdy but they can break, I've seen a lot of ankylosaurus missing the tail club). You could cut the card so to collect the information about each species (by the way some are very funny and outdated like sauropods lived only in the water because of their weight). I've noticed an identity error in the package, too, in the card the tyrannosaurus is misplaced with the allosaurus and viceversa. The one with two fingers is the tyrannosaurus, the allosaurus has three. In the belly, however, the name is correctly stamped. You can see it here:





UKRD 1992 GLOW-IN-THE-DARK DINOSAUR SKELETONS

And now one of the nicest collections I have, the 1992 glow-in-the-dark skeletons. They are so entertaining, I love playing with them in the dark with my children as they glow more than other things I have.
The glow-in-the-dark skeletons are the same sculpt as the normal ones, but made in that special plastic we all now about.
They have the year 1992 printed on the belly, but as they came out later, some people know them as Jurassic Park skeletons, specially the non-glowing version in 1993 by Funrise. And there is another interesting thing ... I have a glowing pteranodon skeleton (I don't have the normal version) that has a base (the normal didn't seem to have, at least as shown in the card) in which you can read clearly: 1997 Universal Studios and Amblin. So, the connection with Jurassic Park seems to be more than a rumour as this little figure confirms, and these glow-in-the-dark version may have been released (or re-released) in 1997 too, after Jurassic Park 2. The Pteranodon has the same printed letters on its wing (1992, the letter and China) as the other figures, there is no room for that about Universal and Amblin. It's the new added base of the Pteranodon that has this little surprise.




The 1997 Universal CS and Amblin stamped on the base of the pteranodon (the skeleton-normal-version didn't have it) and the collection labelled by the toy company Ravensden (you can buy still buy them on eBay).

And now together a comparison of some figures of the three 1992 collections:







UKRD 1992 POSEABLE / BENDABLE dinosaurs:
The 1992 set of soft rubber bendy figures was a nice surprise. The figures were inspired in the other series, but with a new figure: a deinonychus/velociraptor and a camarasaurus (which is the apatosaurus with a name change). There were 8 in the collection (no ankylosaurus, dimetrodon, pteranodon, iguanodon or allosaurus). The figures had metal wires inserted in arms, legs, tails and necks (sauropods), and would have made a very nice playable toys if it weren't of their poses: the legs and arms sprawled to the sides more than moving forward and backwards. And if the wires deteriorated or broke, the dinosaur ended doing a belly flip.
I'm lucky to have a set of figures with the wires still intact and poseable. The material is a soft rubber and the paint is very colourful and resistant to wear. You can throw them as hard as you can and they won't damage. Eyes are painted solid in red or white. Triceratops seems to have been made in two colours (green and greyish-green).



The only figures I'm missing are the deinonychus and the pachycephalosaurus, which you can see pictured here:





1993 LINE - MEDIUM AND SMALL FIGURES

In 1993, ifit was not enough, not one but two different series (one of medium sized figures and other mini version) were released and worldwide distributed, and both have become probably the most successful set of dinosaur figures after the 1992 collection. Even some are still being sold by other companies.

A- 1993 MEDIUM SIZED FIGURES:

One series was of medium sized figures (about 10-11 cm), with the name of the company U.K.R.D. stamped on the belly, the CE European symbol, a series number for each species (in all of them but not in the Edmontosaurus! ), the year 1993 and an alphabet letter followed by the name of the species.
The iguanodon and pteranodon disappeared and edmontosaurus returned. And a new species was welcomed: styracosaurus. The parasaurolophus is undoubtedly the best in the collection (as it has always been), triceratops is also very nice. The worst ones are the styracosaurus and the ankylosaurus.



Here is the complete list of 12 figures:
A Tyrannosaurus
B Stegosaurus
C Edmontosaurus
D Apatosaurus
E Parasaurolophus
F Styracosaurus
G Dimetrodon
H Ankylosaurus: A NOSE HORN?!!
I Pachycephalosaurus
J Triceratops
K Brachiosaurus: I've come across two versions: a pink bellied and a yellow bellied one.
L Velociraptor







In some lots I bought I realised that some of the figures were of different colour. I don't know if they were second molds figures or just copies or knock offs.
The best "copies" are almost the same as the originals but the paint has a different "feeling" when touching and the stamped letters in the belly are smaller. The belly lacks most of the wrinkles.
Here you can have a closer look at the "versions". Be aware if you are looking for the original ones (in the picture, on the top).

If only was difficult to search into lots of remolds and copies, there are also knock offs like these.
Toysmith has also made lovely copies in very nice earth tones. I found the picture in Ebay.

Even Miniland is selling NOW (yes, they are still apreciated!) in Amazon a bucket with 12 figures. Tyrannosaurus, Apatosaurus, Parasaurolophus, Styracosaurus, Dimetrodon, Ankylosaurus, Pachycephalosaurus, Brachiosaurus and Velociraptor are from the same molds. The rest (diplodocus/apatosaurus, triceratops, pteranodon and stegosaurus) are from the Funrise molds.


A- 1993 SMALL SIZED FIGURES:

This smaller set are almost exact miniature versions of the medium sized ones excepting styracosaurus and ankylosaurus, which were resculpted and look much better than their larger mates. The colors are faithful to the larger version excepting in tyrannosaurus (blue instead of maroon), edmontosaurus (brown instead of green) and pachycephalosaurus (metallic blue instead of blue and green).




There was a later second paint version of these miniatures. They are easily recognisable by their yellow bellies and most have a pattern of big dots . As I'm quite completionist, I collected them, too.



There are later more colour versions, too:




Here you can see the comparison between the size of 1991 (museum line), 1992, 1993 medium and small figures.





OTHER U.K.R.D.

The Japan brand Tsukuda Hobby released in the 80s an incredibly well sculpted rubber dinosaur collection. I think they were very accurate for the time and had a lively eye (identical to Tyco's Dinoriders figures).
In the 90s they took the 1991 UKRD molds (which were no more accurate than their first) and released them in a different, more "classy" way. They painted all in the same dark greyish tones, and they added that lively eye as their older collection. Figures were sold in individual boxes and packaged in a bag of plastic. They seem to be the 12 figures as the UKRD molds (they are given a code number KR and at least Protoceratops is KR12).






U.K.R.D. 1997

For many years I thought UKRD had disappeared after 1993, because I didn't see any more collections. But I discovered in some pics (not mine) that in 1997 they were still using the 1991 molds and they changed the year in the stamp, to 1997. This collection is brightly painted in glossy light blue.




Then I discovered there are some "new" sculpts, too. I don't know if they were made for a series (some sellers label them as from Dinosaur Planet, but I'm not sure). I have identified at least 3: 1997 apatosaurus, stegosaurus and tyrannosaurus). I have no idea if there are more or if there is a series of them. The tyrannosaurus has no UKRD letters but it's obvious it has the same type of typography as the apatosaurus and as the stegosaurus, they are based in the 1991 sculpt (but not identical). There seem to be at least three colour versions of the apatosaurus (two greens, one yeast).
These figures are medium sized (about 8-10 cm) and hollow (they have the circular seam in the belly), so after three years of heavy solid figures, they went for the obvious saving in rubber.






I think I have told you everything I've learnt about this company, and I'm glad to share with you this information, so you know more about the dinosaurs which most of us grew up with. It's never too late to collect some of them before they get scarce. I think they are one of the most important in dinosaur collecting history. They recall so lovely memories. 

[SidB]

For  a long time, when I started collecting, I had a few of these figures, as they would periodically show up in bags of like toys at local Value Village stores here in Toronto, along with other predictable acquisitions. For $2.99, you would get, typically, 3-5 specimens, in varying condition, usually well played with, a mix of these, Carnegie, Schleich and "cheaposaurs." I'd keep all except the cheapies. The UKRD's definitely didn't fit into the latter category, though they were about a step below the earliest Carnegie Safaris in detail and accuracy. They were solid and hefty, so were kept in my inventory for many years. I gave them all away a few years ago - your pics have  a nostalgic feel about them. Thanks for sharing.

[Duna]

Thanks for sharing.

You are welcome. Those figures also wakes up a nostalgic feeling in me.

[Halichoeres]

This is a great reference. The line is more extensive than I had guessed. The Rhamphorhynchus looks pretty decent!

[CityRaptor]

The colors of the green Dimetrodon reminds me of the Kenner Jurassic Park Dimetrodon. The Trike in the same pictures also has similar colors to the Die-Cast one.

[Libraraptor]

Congratulations on the complete collection!  I like their rough charme.

[Duna]

When I started my search, I bought some lots which had small surprises. I purchased this lot to get the Danone Jurassic Park green stegosaurus (extremely rare if not unique) and some of the UKRD figures. And as they came with the bonus, as you can see, of two UKRD miniatures  of the same year, 1993.

In fact, I also had at home (a friend of mine gave my children a bunch of dinosaurs minis a year ago) another three of the minis: tyrannosaurus, styracosaurus and stegosaurus. So I suddenly found myself with 5 of the figures of the miniature collection, and by that time it was just unstoppable ... Only 7 more to go!

If getting the medium sized figures was really easy, the smaller ones become quite a nightmare. The market is flooded with new versions, remolds and copies, and I wanted to get first the original version.
These are just like the medium sized ones, but in a simpler sculpt, with less wrinkles and a simpler color palette, but they are still faithful to their bigger brothers.


I got almost all of them (11) but not the elusive mini triceratops (I only found posterior green spotted versions), which I had never seen even in a picture. I was searching totally blind, for a figure I didn't know what it was like (I knew only how the sculpt was thanks to the later version and also that it had to resemble its bigger chunky brother by its colors) ... But no luck. I would have exchanged the Toyway Ornithocheirus if I had it for that little triceratops ... 

So weeks passed, months .... until I saw this quite battered lot in the web ... YES! THE LITTLE TRICERATOPS WAS THERE!! I couldn't believe my luck! And a bonus I didn't expect, the yellow bellied mini brachiosaurus (there was also a medium sized one)!! along with the most common pink bellied one and to complete my happiness, a light yellow bellied velociraptor in perfect condition.
So now my collection is complete. Getting all the minis has been quite an oddysey!


A few weeks later I saw another lovely lot ... there was a hidden treasure in it ...
Yes, you have guessed it right ... another figure of the elusive mini triceratops, and in perfect condition, as all the rest of the figures ... I fact I only know these two and saw none in any collection by now.
The base color of the new one is more orange than the other I had, so the overall colors look brighter. Both are from the first color-originals.






I can't be happier ...  In fact I have now 6 mini triceratops. They just started appearing from nowhere ...

[Duna]

Updated with the 1993 small figures posterior second paint version.

I've found other color versions of some of the 1993 small figures, too:





And a secret: I'm on the way to get also the 1991 and 1992 figures.  They appear here and there in sales but are getting quite scarce (and more expensive).

[tinyvinyldinos]

Now here's a mystery from my dinosaur bin.



These are, I believe, the 2-inch playset in original paint. But as you can see, they've got snaps on them. That's because they were part of a group of four that originally came on a t-shirt. I can't find the fourth one, it may have been lost, or the snap just fell off and I didn't recognize it as part of the shirt gang (my parents disagree as to which was the fourth, but it was definitely a quadruped, mom's vote is stegosaurus and dad's vote is dimetrodon). Now, to the best of everyone's knowledge and ability, this shirt was purchased somewhere between 1999-2001 (parents also disagree as to the store, but my dad says toys r us imaginarium and I am going with that because this is not something my mom would have purchased)- which is a little strange, given that they still have the 1993 stamps, and UKRD definitely was not in business at that time anyways!

Anyways, this is Just For Fun, I can't find any other record of the dinosaur shirt and I'm curious as to if it ever really was a purchasable item.

[Gwangi]

I can't believe I missed this post, this is excellent work. Well done and thanks for sharing.

[Funk]

Great overview! Seems I'm the only one still reviewing UKRD figures for the blog, but you certainly seem to be more knowledgable about them and their history. Have you considering reviewing the missing figures?

The only things "missing" from the list are the skeletons, some of which glowed in the dark, and the "bendy" figures with wires inside. Some examples:

[Duna]

Thank you @Funk ! Yes, I know the 1992 skeletons and the poseable/bendy 1992 figures, in fact I have most of them. But what I didn't have was the time to fill in the information here in the thread, hehe.
But I will do, surely and this will be the most complete thread about UKRD on the internet.

By the way, the velociraptor/deinonychus is yours? I'm looking for that little figure.

[Funk]

Good to hear! Yeah, the photos are of my figures, but the metal wires have long broken, so the limbs aren't poseable any more, which is why I had to hold the leg down for the photo, otherwise they stand in weird split pose... So I fear this might be the case for other such old figures if you're looking for them, or how are yours holding up?

[denissem17]

Hello! I came across your blog from a reverse image search of some dinosaur toys by UKRD and figured I could ask here so I made an account to possibly ask for help in finding out more information on some dinosaurs toys I have. I bought them at a yard sale for $1 each and the lady selling them said they were vintage and I tried looking them up on the sold listing on eBay, but couldn't find the exact same ones I have. There's 4 total, all say UKRD 1992 made in China. The names are tyrannosaurus, triceratops, camarosaurus, and stegosaurus. Thanks!

https://ibb.co/album/w0XyvT

[Duna]

Hello! I came across your blog from a reverse image search of some dinosaur toys by UKRD and figured I could ask here so I made an account to possibly ask for help in finding out more information on some dinosaurs toys I have. I bought them at a yard sale for $1 each and the lady selling them said they were vintage and I tried looking them up on the sold listing on eBay, but couldn't find the exact same ones I have. There's 4 total, all say UKRD 1992 made in China. The names are tyrannosaurus, triceratops, camarosaurus, and stegosaurus. Thanks!

https://ibb.co/album/w0XyvT

Hi! 
We are glad that you find this wonderful forum by that way. Yes, you have 4 dinosaurs by the disappeared chinese company UKRD from the 1992 bendable / poseable versions. But yours have a different paintwork (check the original first in my pictures), probably a later version but I don't know how much later. In fact I didn't know there were painted in other colours. Probably the person who owned them knows if they were from 1992 or most probably a later reissue (they kept using the same molds even in 1997). But yes, they are vintage and 1$ each is a great price for them. They are not very coveted or very expensive, though, probably because chinasaurus similar to those weren't much appreciated, but they do have a nostalgical value.
The poseable 1992 are one of the rarest and very rare to find in perfect condition with the wires unbroken. I myself am still looking for two that I'm missing, those are even rarer.

Good look and enjoy collecting and the forum!

[TheLegend]

Apologies, I know this post is a few years old but I found two of these at a carboot sale today for £1. I'm just curious if you know how much they are worth? I had trouble finding anything on eBay, but a Google image search led me to this amazing post. I can see that I have the Brachiosaurus and the Tyrannosaurus Rex from the museum line, any help with pricing would be very appreciated . 

[Duna]

Hi T @TheLegend and welcome! Every comment here is highly appreciated, don't worry. About the price of UKRD figures ... they are not really expensive as there are lots of them, same as most Safari figures ... Museum line are considered the most expensive as they are large and made of solid rubber. I think about 7-9 GBP would be a nice price. Maybe you could ask a bit more if they are in very good condition but you may not be succesful with the sale.

[TheLegend]

That's great, thank you so much for responding. My daughter seems to have fallen in love with them so I'm actually glad to hear they aren't worth much