Cretaceous Creations life size Psittacosaurus update!!!

[ataraxus]

for me as modelbuilder are such anatomical details not so interesting. Your Kit rocks extremely Shane. it will be my second pillow this year

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I love all the details myself, but there is so many unknown factors, differences within species down to the individuals..there is still a chaotic element when working with anything but a living animal.  I think this piece is great !

[wings]

It also does not mean it can not. both the wrist and the elbow joint move just not as much as our own based on the shape of our joints compared to theirs . by slightly rotating at the elbow and at the wrist( some movement will happen when the elbow is turned ) you can go fron palms facing to palms back without an extreme range of motion. Papers have been issued on this matter and the conclusion is they crawled when very young, with palms down thus allowing this motion possible at this stage of life. really not an ISSUE as you stated. just a model of my opinion and rendering based on MY finds and measurements off of the actual fossil its based on.ITs really that simple . I wouldn't loose any sleep over it ,lol. Its interesting and fun 3-d art ( that took a lot of time to make) of something we all love.

Don't think any of these papers are saying that they can not,  just very "limited". Sure there is no extreme movement as such but not having quite the right shape to that make too much rotation and that is what these papers are concern about. The elbow point is kind of like a pivot to move the entire length of the lower arm. Regardless how big or small the wrist rotate the elbow joint would require to accommodate the displacement. Like I said earlier this (palm completely facing the back) can achieve in different ways; like having the the ulna and radius crossed (as noted from some individuals) or having a rounder shape of the radius contact or maybe even sprawling like the crocodilians. However if you think that is how it is on your specimen then that is how it is on your model. It would be hard to tell unless there are images or seeing the actual specimen. To be fair, if such feature isn't much of an ISSUE then I honestly don't see the point of these papers being published...

[copper]

i usually avoid getting involved in these kinds of discussions, but as an artist i feel compelled to take part in this one.
i don't know much about the scientific papers or advanced studies in this specific matter, but what i understand by reading the comments is that the position of the palms which the model has can be possible. if it's a possibility, then what i don't understand  why all this fuss. shane's piece is a piece of art, meant to be enjoyed,  and if the mode is commissioned by person and this person is fully pleased with it, all is well. the model is a reflection of a life, but it's still an expression of the author.
i think this thread was made for the purpose of showcasing shane's new sculptures, and not for the  advanced discussion of the studies of the animal's hand movements. don't get me wrong, the disussion is rightfully linked to the  topic but it seems that the latter is taking a quite amount of space.

[wings]

...what i understand by reading the comments is that the position of the palms which the model has can be possible. if it's a possibility, then what i don't understand  why all this fuss...

The point is if you go by the conclusion and images of the specimen used in these papers then such hand posture is just not possible. However it is not to say it can't be on all four since not all quadrupedal dinosaurs walked with their hands in such position.

[s.foulkes]

Ok thanks Cooper , Wings YOUR missing the point this is my work not yours , this post has been nothing more than ANOTHER soap box for you to step up onto and profess as your moment to shine . This project is something I have been working on for 3 years , then I post it to share and you see it for 30 seconds and then for some reason you deem yourself appointed as the person who decides if what im doing here is relevant? you have no relevancy to this project ,you have no say in it nor are you in any way a part of it .
you get on here and keep posting your point down own throats to get the last word in. you just did it again. you should have stopped long ago. THis project was not here for you to debunk ,your comments have long ago gone from a friendly discussion into something that you have an ISSUE with.? that's pathetic . are you really that self absorbed to think that your relevant to this in any way. your not. you have high jacked my post and taken over as if you and your thoughts matter . people on here are all telling you to get on with your life and move on. this has nothing to do with you,  and any attempt on your part to refute it will only further your
cluelessness on the matter. stop while your behind please. im a professional PALEOsculptor not you.  if you know so much why don't you try and sculpt and post your own work instead of belittling others to this degree. 

[amargasaurus cazaui]

er...was just looking at the model again and wanted to inquire ? Given the large size of this kit and the detail level achieved, would it be possible to also offer the head and neck piece seperately for those interested? I would likely purchase that, as well as the model for my own display here, if it is offered. Just a suggestion, thanks

[wings]

To be honest, I always felt that anatomy is important in paleo-reconstruction (or any kind of biological reconstruction) ignoring it for me the model is valueless. I always thought that this forum (dinosaur toy forum) is for this kind of discussion otherwise this would just be an art forum for fantasy creatures. What you said about the anatomy is misleading (wrist rotation in relation to the elbow joint) and that is the only reason I've pointed it out. If for any paleo-sculptors to follow the same logic, I think it is just plainly wrong. For you to say that this idea has no base very much demonstrate that you didn't have an understanding on this concept (papers). That is just belittling the researchers work.

I'm sure that since you are a "professional PALEOsculpter" then you would probably have a logical explanation on the subject but that never seem to happen. "...the lower part of the arm is meant to rotate! that's why there is a ulna and radius...", and that is your reasoning...

I said it before that I'm never an artist or sculptor and never will be one but analyzing an artwork does not require artistic talent so I don't see the relevant of  whether I'm a sculptor or not. Unfortunately, I just didn't realize this thread is just about praising your work but no critics allowed. I'll make sure that I won't critic on this anymore.

[s.foulkes]

You just proved me right , thanks . and you don't even see it. glad your  moving on .

[s.foulkes]

er...was just looking at the model again and wanted to inquire ? Given the large size of this kit and the detail level achieved, would it be possible to also offer the head and neck piece seperately for those interested? I would likely purchase that, as well as the model for my own display here, if it is offered. Just a suggestion, thanks

of course you can . any of my models that section at the base of the neck can be casted by themselves and sold as a bust. let me know it that's what you want to  do.

[caspakian]

Shane, I think your sculpt is totally awesome and I can't wait to get my copy!!!

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Not really my idea to toss another log into the hands position debate....I think that conversation has run its own course. I did notice from studying the model a rather intersting concept that might help those who disagree with the current hand position. The way this model was made, and the sculpted, it would seem a simple enough thing to rotate the arms at the upper joint slightly to the outside. The net effect would be to alter the position with both just enough to provide the necessary outward deflection of the hands for those that feel it is essential. Then some minor texture adjustment at the joints and voila. semi supinated psittacosaurus for those that feel it is necessary. As the one hand is already off the ground, the adjustment would be rather simple.
    Works for me at least. Thanks again for the nice model Shane, and looking forward to seeing it built and standing on my case.

[Gorgonzola]

Shane, this is a fantastic piece.  Any chance you have any process pictures of it while it was a WIP? I'm always fascinated by what other sculptors achieve, especially traditionally. You work entirely in super sculpey, right?

[tyrantqueen]

Any chance you have any process pictures of it while it was a WIP?

There were photos of the sculpt in the masking tape phase on his site:

[wings]

...it would seem a simple enough thing to rotate the arms at the upper joint slightly to the outside. The net effect would be to alter the position with both just enough to provide the necessary outward deflection of the hands for those that feel it is essential. Then some minor texture adjustment at the joints and voila. semi supinated psittacosaurus for those that feel it is necessary...

@amargasaurus cazaui

This is probably the solution as noted in Ford and Martin (2010).

"...Recently, an adult Psittacosaurus sp. was found with 34 articulated baby skeletons. Many of the babies have naturally sprawling humeri and femora and flexed distal limb portions, suggesting that a sprawling proximal limb posture was natural for this taxon..."

[Spinosaurus Aegyptiacus]

You just proved me right , thanks . and you don't even see it. glad your  moving on .

Not that you need it, Shane, but rest assured: there are many, many, many, (need I go on?) people who love your work and see it for what it is. Again, I'm sure that you already know this.
I for one am on Team Foulkes!

[caspakian]

I believe Shane is trying to convince everyone that his work is more than just art. It is art based on the latest research available. He takes great pride in doing his research prior to starting a sculpt. If you are of the same mindset as me, I think Shane is among the greatest paleo-artist ever, living or dead and I very much want him to continue what he is doing and to succeed in doing so.

When an artist post pictures of their finished work right as it is made available and the first thing we do is "pick it apart in a public forum", it possibly hurts the sales and possibly the artist's future in the business. If you care about these guys who are putting their heart and soul into their work, let's choose our words carefully and help them sell their product!

[s.foulkes]

Paid for my the foulkes committee. lol. thanks David much love back at ya. couldn't have been said better. thank you. You get me. Im not perfect , im not fragile, and can handle critisisim well ,and some of it is always good,  but when it gets to the point where the good stuff never gets mentioned and only the negative becomes the only issue then all I have is regret for posting it in the first place. I do it because I love the world of Dinosaurs and im sharing it with those who feel the same way, and its not for those who try to make us feel like we have to validate what we do. Once I get the first casting painted I will post again.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

Per Simon's demands, as he was unable to notice the indents marking seperate paragraphs, I will modify my comments for his use.
           (paragraph 1)I see several aspects of this discussion that might be worth putting forward. When a new model is shown on the forum by Safari or perhaps Carnegie, noone holds their words or considers that closely before putting forward some rather searing comments about the model or even the sculptor. I have always spoken for the viewpoint that one should not criticize ONLY but offer the good with the bad, and where possible to offer explanations for the criticism rather than just saying something is awful or terrible or the sculptor should be fired.  In the past I have defended both Doug Watson and Forest Rogers here for their work.I think people forget this is the internet, where Doug Watson will be reading what you say, or perhaps even Forest Rogers. I do not think a model should go without its reviews and viewers thoughts however.
          (paragraph 2) I think a model will often have a few mistakes or flaws, or issues that are not perfect. I once asked a fellow forum member who had pointed out some of the issues with the model of Jobaria...Mr. Gwangi. He pointed out some of the things wrong with it and yet stated it was a favorite or model he was fond of and I was curious why. His answer has always stuck with me because he said...and I lack the exact quote here, but it was to the effect , despite the few errors the model has, they are less than the whole of the model to him, and he liked the model once that was all factored. I think that is a process we all travel through before buying or wanting any model or figure and it is inevitable.
          (paragraph 3)This model deserves the same scrutiny and examination as anyone else's work.  If it is going to be offered on Facebook or Wonder-Con it might also be beneficial to know the small kinks in how it was done prior to facing even harsher critics. I believe that process is also inevitable. There are people who are not familiar with your work Shane, nor you as a person and are going to step forward and make these comments. There are others who lack the context to place this model where it belongs..in that it is perhaps one of two or three that makes a serious attempt to interpret this dinosaur and the only model that is life sized of any psittacosaurus, being offered for commercial sale.
        (paragraph 4) I myself waited a solid two days after the model was posted, until you identified the species and what you were going for here before offering any comments or thoughts.
        (paragraph 5)I also think price and size plays a part that should be considered here. It is one thing to spend thirty dollars for a small replica that will be one of twenty others on a shelve all the same size and with similar body plans, quite another when you are contemplating a life size, space eating, full blown model, that is going to cost more than a few hundred dollars. I know for my part this will be one of the more expensive models I have opted to purchase. When I own it and display it, I want it to be correct, or if there are mistakes i wish to know what they are , and what is involved.For myself at least, the model will display alongside a skeleton of the dinosaur so they best somewhat match each other-or I am going to have alot of questions to answer .
     (paragaph 6)  In that capacity such a discussion does bring something to table. I think as a sculpter that creates such a large work and so forth that a massively thick skin would be required. I admit I do not envy you in that part Shane...it would be nerve shatteing for me.
      (paragaph 7) A few things that should be said about this model that have not . There are few true lifelike models of this dinosaur,Collecta, salvat, starluxe, a safari toob figure, the dinosaur expo piece, a definitely dinosaurs toy and Carnegie's model. There is also a funrise figure. The dinosaur was badly overlooked in the Dinotales line. There are a few other models of the figure that wander even further from accuracy. The geoworlds figure is more of a caricature than a model.
For actual models you can purchase Aaron Doyle's models which are the closest I have seen to correct for this species until recently. Options are just limited and more limited....this is not like stegosaurs, or triceratops or Tyrannosaurus, where there are many to choose from and many of those are huge in scale and highly accurate.
     (paragraph   Summing it, that means this is the largest model ever offered or attempted of this dinosaur. In addition it is one of the few and I mean like two that is even close to being accurate for the dinosaur. Those factors deserve complimenting Shane, and I appreciate you bringing this to the table and offering it for the fans of this dinosaur. For my own opinion I do feel the feet are slightly out of proportion, and the hands should angle outwards a tad more to be perfect, however for me the model is a definite yes and quite well conceived. By the way you have a PM from me unanswered Shane, thanks.
     There you go Simon, sorry you missed all of the indentations and inserted spaces at the end of each paragraph formerly. I have now exaggerated the indents and marked clearly each paragaph for you. You are quite welcome.       

[Simon]

Amargasaurus:  Please separate your paragraphs in the above post.  As it is now its simply too much of a pain to read.