Cretaceous Creations life size Psittacosaurus update!!!

[caspakian]

FINALLY here and in Shane's hands. Resin casting of life size Psittacosaurus . 37" long x 15" high. Available now! Please contact Shane for pricing. The buyer can install there own Quills along the tail. The cheap way to go there is go to the craft store and buy long Feathers and strip all the feathery vein off leaving only the pointy stem, and then airbrush them like a porcupine quill. Actual porcupine quills are $5 to $15 each, so this is the way to go.






Also, two update pics of the commissioned 1/10 scale T Rex. Bulking the figure out...

[tyrantqueen]

Wow, the Psittaco is stunning...one question though, shouldn't the hands be facing each other? I guess it's an old-ish sculpt so that can be excused somewhat.

[Yutyrannus]

The Psittacosaurus is awesome!

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Saw this on Shane's fb... pretty sweet on both of them. I wish the Psittaco was in something like fiberglass so I  could use it outdoors year round. I would jump on that as it would be a Park item not a personal one.

I'm not sure about the hands..it's a ceratopsian right ?  Their hand placement is still widely theorized I don't think there is a consensus yet on them .

[postsaurischian]

  Wow! Amarga will go wild !

[tyrantqueen]

I'm not sure about the hands..it's a ceratopsian right ?  Their hand placement is still widely theorized I don't think there is a consensus yet on them

Aaron Doyle updated the hands on his psittacosaurus...I'm pretty sure they should be in the clapping position.

[caspakian]

I would think they would rotate as needed to grasp or walk.

[tyrantqueen]

I would think they would rotate as needed to grasp or walk.

No, Psittacosaurus walked bipedally. It may have rested on all fours momentarily, but would not have put its full weight on them. And it would still be capable of grasping without rotating its wrists. If you check out Scott Hartman's most recent skeletals, he always makes his basal ornithischians bipedal, with palms facing each other.



Btw, I am not trying to bash Shane Foulkes' work. I am a huge fan of his sculpts.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

Not at all..and you may be right.  I'm sure Shane will chime in and let us know soon.

[wings]

I would think they would rotate as needed to grasp or walk.

No, Psittacosaurus walked bipedally. It may have rested on all fours momentarily, but would not have put its full weight on them. And it would still be capable of grasping without rotating its wrists. If you check out Scott Hartman's most recent skeletals, he always makes his basal ornithischians bipedal, with palms facing each other.

This might be true in general but there is evidence that some (in this case Psittacosaurus) might be permanently pronated... (http://dinosaurpalaeo.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/dinopic-of-the-day-15-find-the-flaws/, see Mallison's comment)

"Which may really have been possible! I can't say in this specimen, because the bones are flattened, but I have seen both straight (un- or little pronateable) radii, and sinusoidally curved ones (permanently pronated?). So I am not sure if you are correct or not."

Perhaps Shane was looking at this for the hand position (below)



The feet on the model seems to be a tad long (proportion wise) as well...





The feet on these (above) looks to be about two third the length of the lower leg however those on the model looks almost equal in length between the lower leg and foot.

[s.foulkes]

  Well I guess I need to chime in here . I would hope by now that most people realize im not a mere sculptor who just goggles images and basis my work off of that alone. its always best to ask the person in concern (me ) where i got my reference, lol. it may be a shock but I actually do refer most of my work by fossil material and not only rely on an artist drawing of them. drawings is not the real thing but rather an interp by the artist who is doing the drawing . yes I too love and study Scotts work , but it is ink and paper not the real animal. all artist look at the fossil remains and come to their own conclusion ,hence the reason for so many variations in each persons work weather it be a sculpt in 3-d or a 2-d drawing. the person who commissioned this NEW (not an older sculpt) sent me images from all angles of the actual fossil as it was laying flat with the hands in the palm down position. Its important for people to understand the anatomy here. the function of an ulna and radius (the forearm) is to rotate at the elbow not the wrist . when the animal plants its front hands down on the ground for support the ulna and radius rotate palms down . when the animal stands it may have kept the in this  same position (we don't find fossils standing ) just like the fossil find I based this Species of Psittacosaurus on. OR it may have rotated when standing ,  the front limbs just like we do, palms facing. Not as much as we do as our Ulna and Radius twist more ,where these forelimbs need help from the elbow joint.  people keep thinking that animals are locked into  a certain position. the lower part of the arm is meant to rotate! that's why there is a ulna and radius. Raptors most likely carried their arms in the palms facing position which is widely excepted,  and Psittacosaurus may have too. but when on all fours they can rotate them to palms down just like we do. Oh and the drawing by Scott Hartman that is shown as an example is not a Psittacosaurus , its a Heterodontosaurus. . For fun I revisited Scott Hartmans site and His Psittacosaurus has the same hand position that mine does. Not that im using his to stand by, im not at all. im going by the fossil specimen that was given to me . the actual bones of the animal not a artist rendition of one. The species of his is also different then mine but very similar. Mine is of P. Gobiensis (a new find). THe diet of my specimen indicates the diet to include nuts , and tree cones which the animal would have foraged off of the ground and thus spent some fair amount of time on all fours as well, when not up and walking from point A to point B. just like a raccoon or beaver paces along on all fours scrounging the floor for food and morsels . hope that answers all the questions that were being answered in my stead. thanks for all the kind words and discussion is good ,glad we could talk,.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I have been studying the model for a few days and looking it over quite carefully before making any comments, as I was waiting to see the species and perhaps the maturity of the animal depicted before offering any thoughts. I think Shane has done a pretty solid job of pegging this species of Psittacosaurus with this model. I really like the pose, and way the head in particular is done. This species was alot different than most known species and is in direct contrast to my own mount for instance.
My one request would be to see a close up of the manus, and fingers to look more closely at them. 
Regarding the debate about manus posture, if the model is based off the holotype specimen, which is actually not a "new" find, as it was recovered in 2001, the hands were not recovered. However the specimen has only recently been published on. There were other finds in the same area of this same animal so it is also possible the model is not based off holotype.
I do think the subject of hand posture in these dinosaurs is an open debate. We know for instance that more derived ceratopsian dinosaurs were indeed semi supinated in hand posture. We also know for several reasons that Psittacosaurus was not ancestral to these dinosaurs, chief among them being the loss of the fenestrae forward of the eye, and behind the nasal that most derived ceratopsians retained, as well as the missing digit on Psittacosaurus manus and feet. While more modern horned dinosaurs had five digits , Psittacosaurus had already lost the last digit on its hands and feet. It is doubtful these traits re-evolved, which means Psittacosaurus was likely an evolutionary dead-end. In this context it is possible the hand posture was not the same as more derived species . The lab that mounted my skeleton stated they felt the dinosaur should have pronated hands, period.  I chose to alter my mount so the hands are facing as the affect does appear more natural, but I doubt there is enough evidence to close the topic one way or another. I keep wondering myself perhaps as the dinosaur was young and a sub adult if perhaps it tended to use the four legged posture and was less palms inward oriented, and as it matured this changed...not even sure that is possible but it would explain alot. I do think if the dinosaur were displaying what is considered a normally semi-supinated hand posture the fingers would angle outwards even when planted however.
My only real nitpick is I do feel the feet are a bit out of proportion to the body, given the dinosaurs 3 foot mature size, however the feet were also not recovered for the holotype so this is more of a guess than anything I could defend or even offer evidence for, and Shane may be right on target there.
I really like the model and am going to see if I can get one !! At 37 inches long it will dwarf my skeleton at 25 inches, and would look good displayed alongside as yet another interpretation of this awesome dinosaur.
A direct question for you Shane, is the model hollow in places or solid resin and what is the final assembled weight of the piece?What is its height at the hips, top of the head and does the underside display a nicely defined cloaca? (hope i spelled that right) Thanks, and great model Shane

[Spinosaurus Aegyptiacus]

Great model-another home run from Mr. Foulkes!

[tyrantqueen]

Oh and the drawing by Scott Hartman that is shown as an example is not a Psittacosaurus , its a Heterodontosaurus.

I know it's not, I was just using it as an example of an ornithischian since I could not find any of Psittacosaurus in his gallery.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification regarding the sculpt.

[wings]

...Its important for people to understand the anatomy here. the function of an ulna and radius (the forearm) is to rotate at the elbow not the wrist . when the animal plants its front hands down on the ground for support the ulna and radius rotate palms down . when the animal stands it may have kept the in this  same position (we don't find fossils standing ) just like the fossil find I based this Species of Psittacosaurus on. OR it may have rotated when standing ,  the front limbs just like we do, palms facing. Not as much as we do as our Ulna and Radius twist more ,where these forelimbs need help from the elbow joint.  people keep thinking that animals are locked into  a certain position. the lower part of the arm is meant to rotate! that's why there is a ulna and radius. Raptors most likely carried their arms in the palms facing position which is widely excepted,  and Psittacosaurus may have too. but when on all fours they can rotate them to palms down just like we do...

I'm not sure how it could be possible to rotate the wrist without some kind of rotation at the elbow joint also; since the ulna and radius are the only elements that connect these joints (elbow and wrist). If you start rotating one end you'll probably need to move the other end as well to compensate for the displacement of these elements (as bones are rigid rather than elastic...); you need both sides "open" and not just one side.





However, having said this there could be thick cartilage at these joints which gives a bit of room for limited "movement". As you can see the proximal end (elbow joint) of a typical psittcosaur (figure 3G, from Senter's paper below), it lacks a circular radius' head to allow too much rotation at the elbow - at least not to the extend in the current reconstruction (very similar to  figure 5G on the Plateosaurus paper by Mallison, second paper below).

http://www.4shared.com/office/f8pxfhsTba/Basal_ceratopsian_forelimb_fun.html

http://www.app.pan.pl/archive/published/app55/app20090075.pdf

Also to clarify, having radius and ulna does not imply the ability to "rotate"; take the elephants for example since their lower arm elements (radius and ulna) are permanently crossed and their arms are permanently "pronated".

"...Some animals have permanently pronated hands (elephants, for example, and sauropods to a slightly lesser degree). Others have permanently (semi-)supinated hands: theropod dinosaurs, for example..." (http://dinosaurpalaeo.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/how-cats-can-pro-and-supinate/)



As for the "raptor"'s arms, there was a study by Carpenter in 2002 (reference below, not sure if there is a free electronic version) rather than plainly speculated (accepted). 

Carpenter, K. (2002). Forelimb biomechanics of nonavian theropod dinosaurs in predation. Senckenbergiana lethaea 82(1): 59-76.

[s.foulkes]

Please remember this is a model people. its here for viewing pleasure not to be immune from being imperfect. IT was a commission by someone and that someone had a fossil in death pose , that's what the model was based on and can not be fitted into everyone's individual preference. When I say new I don't mean that it was found yesterday ,rather new to the public as a recent reported find. many cases exists where the fossils are dug up and then years go by before being published publicly . my opinion compared to others don't have to match . this was just a job I was hired to do and I was explaining why it was the way it was. felt I would offer some info about it since I was the one who sculpted it. this model depicts an individual of about 4 to 5 years so NOT an adult at all . maturity came at about 10 years and this species attained a size of  5 to 6 feet almost 1.7 meters. so this is a sub-adult, no the forearm movement is not incorrect. the juveniles of Psittacosaurs now have been shown to have locomotion on all four limbs . then as they get older they become more bipedal. This is because when they are very young the arm length is actually longer than the back legs. then by the age of 5 (close to the age represented here) the limbs change roles the back legs become longer and the font limbs end up at only about 60% the length of the back. this model depicts this transition. It looks the way it looks for a reason.  glad everyone likes the model and I will be posting images of it when I get her painted.

[s.foulkes]

Info for ordering this model can be directed to me at : [email protected].

YEs it has all the right parts? all measurements were taken directly off the fossil of the real animal. the height at the hips is about the same as the head which is 14.5 " tall. and the main body is hollow casted to save weight.

[wings]

This would be an interesting find as the morphology of the radius head changes during ontogeny. Maybe your animal does just that no one has published images of those "joints (elbow joints that allows such movement - having the palm completely facing the back)" yet for these animals.

I don't have problem with the model resting of even walking on its forelimbs (since the arms are proportionally long at a young age for psittacosaurs), the only issue that is have is the explanation about how the wrist can move independently to the elbow joint... Also standing/walking on all four does not require the palm to face backward.

"...the function of an ulna and radius (the forearm) is to rotate at the elbow not the wrist...the lower part of the arm is meant to rotate! that's why there is a ulna and radius...(quote from your earlier post)"

[s.foulkes]

It also does not mean it can not. both the wrist and the elbow joint move just not as much as our own based on the shape of our joints compared to theirs . by slightly rotating at the elbow and at the wrist( some movement will happen when the elbow is turned ) you can go fron palms facing to palms back without an extreme range of motion. Papers have been issued on this matter and the conclusion is they crawled when very young, with palms down thus allowing this motion possible at this stage of life. really not an ISSUE as you stated. just a model of my opinion and rendering based on MY finds and measurements off of the actual fossil its based on.ITs really that simple . I wouldn't loose any sleep over it ,lol. Its interesting and fun 3-d art ( that took a lot of time to make) of something we all love.

[amargasaurus cazaui]

I follow all that was said so far ...the only thing I wonder about is the actual size of the animal and its status as an adult. Here is a link to the paper on the holotype in which the author, Paul Sereno states clearly......."The holotypic skeleton of P. gobiensis represents a fully mature individual with coossification of many cranial sutures as well as all neurocentral sutures in the axial column (figure 1b). The mandibular symphysis, for example, is solidly fused. The rostral–premaxillary and predentary-dentary sutures, in addition, are obliterated by fusion, and many other cranial sutures, such as the frontal–frontal and frontal–parietal, can be traced but are fused. The remains of other individuals discovered near the holotypic site also confirm that P. gobiensis is a small-bodied species comparable to Psittacosaurus sinensis (Young 1958).

The trunk measures only 40 cm in length, corresponding to a body length of approximately 1 m. The well-preserved skull was turned to the side. The postcranial skeleton was preserved belly up with the pectoral girdles, forelimbs, sternal plates and ribcage preserved in three-dimensional articulation, suggesting that it was buried as a dried carcass. The gastrolith mass, which is intact with facets of adjacent stones fitted to one another, is positioned to the side, possibly the result of evisceration by a scavenger before burial.


He is stating the holotype is fully grown at three feet. I will provide the link so you can either view the abstract or the full paper but indeed size was what set this species apart to my understanding and placed it in the small side of psittacosaurus species. It is established most of them attained lengths of six feet with Siribicus actually being the largest at 7 to nine feet however.
The paper is free and availible for anyone to download and have . http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2009/06/12/rspb.2009.0691.full

All that being said it is a stunning model and I cannot wait to get one, thanks for the answers Shane. There are so few accurate models of this dinosaur offered out there and the choices are so limited . If it were not for Aaron offering his, and the gorgeous model Manuel did of the Yinlong (not a psittacosaurus but still close) the choices would be halved.