Spinosaurus new look!

[Tyto_Theropod]

Boring day at work.. and couldn't get this thread out of my mind... resulted in this....



just an idea...
Also, looking at the jaw bones, could it possibly have had a head more like a dolphin than a crocodile??

and, i guess i just thought, if a creature has developed the ability to warm itself.. then giving birth to live young is quite a feat.
i dont know why i thought that... but yeah.. sail... not fully warm blooded... egg laying.

I like it, darylj! Myself I'm not sure how I should imagine Spinosaurus given all the conflicting views, but yours is a very interesting take

[HD-man]

Jura's "Tall spines and sailed backs: A survey of sailbacks across time" article is especially relevant to this thread: http://reptilis.net/2014/06/21/tall-spines-and-sailed-backs-a-survey-of-sailbacks-across-time/

Personally, I think that dino sails were used for both display & thermoregulation ("During this time several equatorial dinosaurs evolved tall fins from their neural spines. This may have served as a means to dump excess heat and cool off": http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G104/lectures/104paleoecol.html ).

[stargatedalek]

I think there is still some merit to the upward curved neck theory, not for balance as previously suggested, but simply as part of spinosaurus natural posture, (perhaps it preferred to have a higher vantage point looking down through the water, or any number of other things), it could explain why despite being more adapted for aquatic movement spinosaurus teeth isotopes show it may have spent less time under water than less specialized relatives, because the head was held above the water

not saying I think its probable, just not to write off the basic theory so quickly

[alexeratops]

My own interpretation
http://5aurophaganax.deviantart.com/art/New-Spinosaurus-485974024

Um that's pretty... um, fat. But good art anyway.

[DC]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/03/world/africa/the-dinosaur-that-ate-sharks-for-breakfast/index.html?hpt=wo_t2

The NG video has a simulation of the swimming and walking postures.

[Meso-Cenozoic]

Wow! That was fascinating. Thanks for posting that, DC. I got to pick up this month's Nat Geo! The cover pic is the statue I posted earlier in this thread. 

I'm guessing there's going to be a TV special on this? The logo, National Geographic/NOVA was on all the clips. Has anyone heard?

[Meso-Cenozoic]

Aha, found it!

The NOVA/National Geographic TV special entitled, "Bigger Than T. rex" will have its premiere on PBS, November 5th at 9pm (I'm guessing EST).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/bigger-than-t-rex.html

[Balaur]

Apparently, I read somewhere that said that the sail had few blood vessels, and was therefore not used for thermoregulation. While I'm not sure that the number of blood vessels correlates with thermoregulation, I do agree that it was not used for heating itself. I think one way to prove that it was used for display is if we find baby Spinosaurus without sails. The subadults have sails, but many dinosaurs could reproduce even before they are fully grown.

and, i guess i just thought, if a creature has developed the ability to warm itself.. then giving birth to live young is quite a feat.
i dont know why i thought that... but yeah.. sail... not fully warm blooded... egg laying.

Sorry if I am misinterpreting this, but vivipary does not correlate with warm-bloodedness. Some ectothermic reptiles are viviparous. Some mammals, (endotherms) are oviparous. I don't think that metabolism has anything to do with its reproduction.

[darylj]

fair point.
I still just feel that something doesn't add up... not that it has to add up... it must just be the OCD in me.

spinosaurus is now a knuckle walking, polar bear / crocodile / sea lion hybrid.... an insight into the beginning of what could have been the road to dinosaur whale type creatures.... with this in mind i simply cannot fathom how an enormours sail on the back could have occured... unless the creature NEEDED it.

if the sail began to evolve before this creature became adapted for this lifestyle, then the sail would have surely hindered this... especially in swimming... imagine trying to turn in the water with a huge sturdy sail on your back??

if the creature had already began to become adapted for the lifestyle it lived and the sail grew developed afterwards (which is surely more likely as relatives of spinosaurus seem to be well adapted for similar lifestyle) then how does that occur without evolution favouring a smaller less movement hindering sail???

and if this was just for display... why is it so big in comparison to other spinosaurids... baryonyx and suchomimus had smaller versions, much smaller... why did there sails not need to be so large and elaborate when the creatures where themselves much smaller?? why did spinosaurus need to be so seen by the opposite sex where baryonyx didnt?

[fabricious]

You might ask yourself the same questions looking at peacocks, while smaller, related species like pheasants and chickens have much smaller tail feathers than peacocks do. It hinders them in flying and sometimes even in walking and the only purpose is to show off. Thinking of birds of paradise, this topic comes up quite often as well, since they don't have as many predators around and thus can afford to be elaborately decorated.

[Simon]

Who knows?  Maybe the sail helped to ID the "alpha male" in the water.

I'm also not completely buying the legs being so small.  The animal had to have been able to walk on land, no matter how awkwardly.  Unless they actually find a pair of Spinosaur arms that changed to legs (which they won't because then their fish catching function would have been negated), it would have been impossible for this animal to use its "fish catching" claws to walking purposes.

So, we have some amazing finds (ie the semi-aquatic nature of its lifestyle) but still not a 100% reliable picture of what the creature actually looked like ...

[Balaur]

Who knows?  Maybe the sail helped to ID the "alpha male" in the water.

I'm also not completely buying the legs being so small.  The animal had to have been able to walk on land, no matter how awkwardly.  Unless they actually find a pair of Spinosaur arms that changed to legs (which they won't because then their fish catching function would have been negated), it would have been impossible for this animal to use its "fish catching" claws to walking purposes.

So, we have some amazing finds (ie the semi-aquatic nature of its lifestyle) but still not a 100% reliable picture of what the creature actually looked like ...

Well, the legs are that small, but just how it walked on land is the problem. Also, it probably didn't use its claws to catch fish, rather to tear them apart after catching them with their jaws. We know what it looks like, but just how it walked is the problem.

[amanda]

The special, and narration of those scenes will help. Maybe it is talked about more in depth. I have a suspicion the recreation of it "walking" might be part of a talk on how it couldn't move? Until we see the whole special, it's tough to say.

[Yutyrannus]

Who knows?  Maybe the sail helped to ID the "alpha male" in the water.

I'm also not completely buying the legs being so small.  The animal had to have been able to walk on land, no matter how awkwardly.  Unless they actually find a pair of Spinosaur arms that changed to legs (which they won't because then their fish catching function would have been negated), it would have been impossible for this animal to use its "fish catching" claws to walking purposes.

So, we have some amazing finds (ie the semi-aquatic nature of its lifestyle) but still not a 100% reliable picture of what the creature actually looked like ...

They already found the arms. Anyway, this is what it looked like, that is known now, but as Balaur said how it walked is the only problem.

[Simon]

No, they have not found the arms of the new type specimen nor did Stromer find them for his specimen. The arms are based on SUchomimus/Baryonyx and other bits and pieces from "relatives" from what I read....look at this diagram - the legs from the juvi Ibrahim specimen are being scaled up to match Stromer's Spino and the mega-upper jaw found more recently (the 50+ footer).  If that doesn't give you some pause, I don't know what would.  Too many variables for me to be completely comfortable with it yet....

[DinoLord]

Simon whose image is that?

[Simon]

http://brolyeuphyfusion9500.deviantart.com/art/Spinosaurus-aegyptiacus-skeletal-reconstructions-483433951

[DinoLord]

Thanks for the link. I definitely think that more needs to be published and more remains need to be found before a more definitive conclusion on this genus can be reached. In my opinion all the public and press fanfare seems to have jumped the gun a bit.

[Simon]

Who knows?  Maybe the sail helped to ID the "alpha male" in the water.

I'm also not completely buying the legs being so small.  The animal had to have been able to walk on land, no matter how awkwardly.  Unless they actually find a pair of Spinosaur arms that changed to legs (which they won't because then their fish catching function would have been negated), it would have been impossible for this animal to use its "fish catching" claws to walking purposes.

So, we have some amazing finds (ie the semi-aquatic nature of its lifestyle) but still not a 100% reliable picture of what the creature actually looked like ...

Well, the legs are that small, but just how it walked on land is the problem. Also, it probably didn't use its claws to catch fish, rather to tear them apart after catching them with their jaws. We know what it looks like, but just how it walked is the problem.

1.  Actually all we know is that the Juvi Ibrahim specimen had small legs - we have no clue what the 50+ foot specimen looked like, or if how closely related it was to the Juvi specimen - I still don't buy the "scaling up" explanation fully;

2.  Actually, if the animal was indeed swimming as it caught its prey, you bet its arms were involved because its jaws are not sufficiently strong to hold on to a struggling sawfish/coelacanth/lungfish the size of a Toyota Tundra pickup truck - as the mouth grabbed onto the fish the claws would have been sinking into its sides where those massively muscled arms would have been needed to hold it in place/kill it as the animal released the jaws in order to get another bite/better grip.

[Simon]

Thanks for the link. I definitely think that more needs to be published and more remains need to be found before a more definitive conclusion on this genus can be reached. In my opinion all the public and press fanfare seems to have jumped the gun a bit.

I think that the final word on this animal is still lying inside the sandstones of the Sahara .... but we do have a lot of good info that does indeed show that this is perhaps the weirdest dinosaur discovered as yet.  But was it really just a 50-foot torpedo with a sail and arms/legs?  I am unconvinced that the stomach could have been as shallow as their reconstructions show it as being...

I think it would have been ungainly and awkward on land, but that the final analysis will eventually show that it looked more like the Scott Hartman "correction" (see lower picture below) rather than the original as presented (upper picture below) which would require it to be on all fours, an impossibility given what we know about Spinosaurid arms ...