Jurassic World discussion (spoilers)

[Doug Watson]

I expect it was the decision of the high ups rather than the technical teams themselves.

Usually those decisions are made by the director but it is up to the technical people to give them the options & costs then the money people have to go find the funds to pay for it. Spielberg insisted on practical dinos in JP and I suspect if he was still directing they would have been in JW. To me the only main character ever successfully realized totally in CGI was Peter Jackson's King Kong.

For the record I was unimpressed by the CGI really.

I will have to wait and see them back to back when the JW Blue Ray comes out but after seeing JP last night I really didn't find the CGI all that bad in JW its just the lack of the amazing Winston robodinos that really stands out to me.

[suspsy]

I find CGI and animatronics can go either way. King Kong, Avatar, and the recent Planet of the Apes movies relied entirely on CGI for their animals and they all put animatronics to utter shame. Similarly, I thought the animatronic Spinosaurus in JP3 looked jerky and unrealistic. Like in the scene where it's attacking the plane and the head and neck are shaking from side to side while the rest of the body remains perfectly still.

OTOH, as many have pointed out, the CGI in JW was often very unsatisfying. The poor herbivores really got shafted.

Again, if I had to rank all the films, I'd put JW in third place after JP and TLW.

[Doug Watson]

King Kong, Avatar, and the recent Planet of the Apes movies relied entirely on CGI for their animals and they all put animatronics to utter shame.

Can't agree there, as good as King Kong and some of the apes in POTA were they lacked the physical depth that the T rex attacking the jeeps in JP had and certainly didn't put them to shame IMO. CGI still hasn't reached that level. Watching that T rex you believed it was there and doing those things because it was. King Kong and the POTA apes still have a visual flatness to them and like I said I loved King Kong. You keep raising the plane attack in JP3, it didn't bother me and I will get around to seeing it again soon but that was one scene, the battle with the T rex as disappointing as the outcome was, was totally believable because an actual fight was filmed. As far as the Avatar characters are concerned I never felt I was watching real creatures it just looked like a very expensive cartoon to me. So I guess we will just agree to disagree.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

The problem is that CGI is now cheaper to produce in many cases than good ol' fashioned practical effects. I expect it was the decision of the high ups rather than the technical teams themselves. Also there is an expectation amongst the masses of movie-goers that CGI draws more people, and is part of the attraction of films these days. It's a shame and causes practical effects to fall by the wayside a bit. Personally I much prefer practical effects - have any of you seen the amazing Pan's Labyrinth?

For the record I was unimpressed by the CGI really; the movement of the herbivores especially lacked weight and they way the stegosaurs were 'galloping' was very unbelievable.

Yeah that stampede scene was a bit rough to watch..stegosaurs just aren't made to run, trot, but especially gallop. lol

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

King Kong, Avatar, and the recent Planet of the Apes movies relied entirely on CGI for their animals and they all put animatronics to utter shame.

Can't agree there, as good as King Kong and some of the apes in POTA were they lacked the physical depth that the T rex attacking the jeeps in JP had and certainly didn't put them to shame IMO. CGI still hasn't reached that level. Watching that T rex you believed it was there and doing those things because it was. King Kong and the POTA apes still have a visual flatness to them and like I said I loved King Kong. You keep raising the plane attack in JP3, it didn't bother me and I will get around to seeing it again soon but that was one scene, the battle with the T rex as disappointing as the outcome was, was totally believable because an actual fight was filmed. As far as the Avatar characters are concerned I never felt I was watching real creatures it just looked like a very expensive cartoon to me. So I guess we will just agree to disagree.

If you want to see it now :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT8TUowrkLU

In Avatar and Kong there were heavily edited or total CG environments. That adds to having the cg characters fit in better.  ILM managed to put cg animals like the Rex in a real setting back when JP came along and it looked good.  Still most of the animals appeared in the dark or in dim lighting which is really cg's friend.

[Patrx]

One of my favorite scenes is the one where Grey opens the window in their hotel room, the theme music kicks in and you sort of fly over the park.

That was something I really didn't like. Something about those disconnected, floaty camera moves that are so popular lately really takes me out of the moment. Maybe it just loses some of the physicality?

[Doug Watson]

If you want to see it now :

Thanks Blade I actually went and watched it on Youtube before checking back here and it still didn't bother me, I love it, call me a fanboy I don't care.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

If you want to see it now :

Thanks Blade I actually went and watched it on Youtube before checking back here and it still didn't bother me, I love it, call me a fanboy I don't care.

Oh I'm in agreement.  Just look at that screenshot before you even open the video, the flesh/material hanging out of the lower jaw, the stain on the teeth..these are small details that so many miss with CGI.

[Gwangi]

I hated the Spinosaur attack scene, it really does look fake. I already said it a few pages back but it honestly looks more like an amusement part ride than a living dinosaur attacking people. JP3 somehow manages not only to have terrible CGI, but terrible animatronics as well. Just another reason why the movie flat out stinks.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

if there is an issue, i'd blame the lighting which feels sort of faux..like office lighting?

[suspsy]

King Kong, Avatar, and the recent Planet of the Apes movies relied entirely on CGI for their animals and they all put animatronics to utter shame.

Can't agree there, as good as King Kong and some of the apes in POTA were they lacked the physical depth that the T rex attacking the jeeps in JP had and certainly didn't put them to shame IMO. CGI still hasn't reached that level. Watching that T rex you believed it was there and doing those things because it was. King Kong and the POTA apes still have a visual flatness to them and like I said I loved King Kong.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I honestly didn't see the flatness you're speaking of. I found Kong and Caesar to be totally believable, relatable characters. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the fact that the great Andy Serkis was doing the motion capture for them. Perhaps they should try that with the next JP film.

Another great example of CGI meshing well with physical effects is the LOTR and Hobbit trilogies. Treebeard was done perfectly. So were the eagles and Smaug.

the battle with the T rex as disappointing as the outcome was, was totally believable because an actual fight was filmed.

Ah, but that fight scene was almost entirely CGI save for the final shot of the Spinosaurus placing its forelimbs on the dead subadult. They did try to have the animatronics fight each other, but the motions ended up being too slow and jerky.

And yeah, what Gwangi already said. The whole Spinosaurus plane attack scene reminded me of a theme park ride.

[Yutyrannus]

Another great example of CGI meshing well with physical effects is the LOTR and Hobbit trilogies. Treebeard was done perfectly. So were the eagles and Smaug.

They did try to have the animatronics fight each other, but the motions ended up being too slow and jerky.

Don't forget Gollum . Although, I do wish they had used more practical effects on The Hobbit (especially miniatures).

Actually, the fight in the film is CGI mainly because when the tried to have the animatronics fight each other, the Spinosaurus broke the Tyrannosaurus animatronic (which inspired the scene with the Spinosaurus breaking the Tyrannosaurus's neck).

[stargatedalek]

I have to agree with Doug here. I can't think of any better way to describe the effects in Avatar, a giant expensive cartoon, like an HD Pixar movie. It looked very nice visually in its own way but I can't help feeling it only made it so big by sailing on that new 3D tech.

I also didn't find the POTA characters to be especially relate-able, but that's probably more to do with me personally being very out of touch with things like body language and frankly I've never been very comfortable around apes. Even the most friendly chimp alive will make me more nervous than an enraged emu. I thought the animation was very well done but I don't feel it made the characters especially relate-able for me.

In addition to the same above I never really got Kong as a character because he felt so insanely unrealistic and over powered. Yes I get gorilla's are strong but really? How many almost-a-tyrannosaurus? how many? I found the CGI in that movie was a mixed bag, it had some great moments, and then it had "sauropod avalanche simulator".

I thought JP/// actually had alright effects, both CG and animatronics, but I felt the story and writing really pulled it down a lot. I think JP/// is an alright movie, its just that its a below par Jurassic Park movie that makes it fall short of everyone's expectations.

[DinoToyForum]

Another great example of CGI meshing well with physical effects is the LOTR and Hobbit trilogies. Treebeard was done perfectly. So were the eagles and Smaug.

They did try to have the animatronics fight each other, but the motions ended up being too slow and jerky.

Don't forget Gollum .

I genuinely read this as "Goldblum" and had to do a double-take!

[Gwangi]

if there is an issue, i'd blame the lighting which feels sort of faux..like office lighting?

The lighting was no doubt an issue too, and there may have been more at play as well. The entire film just looks that way.

"King Kong" was hit and miss like Stargate said. Too many physics defying scenes that remind you of the CGI with the sauropod stampede being among the worst scenes. "King Kong" was a great example of CGI done in excess. They were too preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop and think if they should!

Love the POTA films, little complaint from me there.

[laticauda]

Great discussion.  Without getting long winded, I feel that special effects are enjoyable when you don't notice them because the story is done well. To do that, the film makers must make the audience suspend disbelief in the story.  Suspending disbelief requires losing rationality, logic, and factors of probability. When the story of a movie gets poor, or the action too crazy, it is easier to notice the flaws in the effects.  In JP III, I had no problem with the Spino-T-Rex battle, but the lame plane crash and the interaction with the plane ruined any believability that was to follow. Despite that, I thought the Spino and T-Rex were good.

Same thing in Peter Jackson's King Kong, LOR and Hobbit ,movies.  The crazier he got with the action, the more flaws and the less I could take serious the effects. 

Jaws is the king when it comes to special effects, story telling and, suspending disbelief.  The effects in that film are limited, and flawed, but it was believable due to how the movie was paced and done.  How many of you cheered at the end when the shark blew up?  I know I did when I was a little kid in the late 80's. Who am I kidding, I still do! Can a shark blow up like that, of course not, but in the moment it didn't matter. 

Oops, I became long winded, but it all comes down to story, (and budget).

[laticauda]

They were too preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop and think if they should!

[/quote]
truer words were never spoken!

[Yutyrannus]

Don't forget Gollum .

I genuinely read this as "Goldblum" and had to do a double-take!

[Doug Watson]

I already said it a few pages back but it honestly looks more like an amusement part ride than a living dinosaur attacking people. JP3 somehow manages not only to have terrible CGI, but terrible animatronics as well. Just another reason why the movie flat out stinks.

Well that would be one heck of an amusement park ride, probably the best ever so sign me up and throw Tea Leoni in with me while you are at it please! Actually just watched it again and realized how hilarious the shot of them all piled in the bottom of the fuselage screaming while falling was, brilliant. I kind of missed that so still catching stuff to enjoy.

Just watched the final battle in the river and most of those shots were practical and the robotic Spino was in the water so they overcame the problems they had in JP with the rain effecting the T rex so that was impressive and again I enjoyed it. But that is just my opinion as your comments express your opinion and opinions are like you know whats we all have them and I guess they are all of equal value at least I like to think so.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I honestly didn't see the flatness you're speaking of. I found Kong and Caesar to be totally believable, relatable characters. Of course, a lot of that had to do with the fact that the great Andy Serkis was doing the motion capture for them. Perhaps they should try that with the next JP film.

When I speak of flatness I am talking as a sculptor and I refer to the visual aspect not the actors performance. An actual object will always have more depth of detail compared to a CGI at least at this point of its development. On the new POTA franchise Caesar is actually the character that disappoints me most as a believable ape and again I am talking visually not the performance. His face was anthropomorphised and that ruined it a bit for me. I still enjoyed it and loved Andy's performance but it would have looked more realistic with a real chimps face IMHO. I actually enjoyed the physical look of Koba more. As an aside, to me Andy should have won an Oscar long ago for Gollum (not Goldblum  )

Ah, but that fight scene was almost entirely CGI save for the final shot of the Spinosaurus placing its forelimbs on the dead subadult. They did try to have the animatronics fight each other, but the motions ended up being too slow and jerky.

It was still a combination of practical and CGI shots as was any whole body shot of the T rex robot in JP. The final neck twist was actually a combination of the CGI Spino and the practical T rex. You can see this in the DVD extras on the trilogy set.
But my reason for mentioning the practical work in JP, TLW and JPIII was to describe what I felt was missing in JW not to debate the merits of JPIII. I still believe a practical I rex and T rex in JW would have allowed some tighter lingering shots that would have showed more detail rather than blurred CGI and added some soul to a movie I already enjoyed anyway. But then again that is just my opinion and you may feel I am talking out of the other thing we share.

[Gwangi]

Well that would be one heck of an amusement park ride, probably the best ever so sign me up and throw Tea Leoni in with me while you are at it please! Actually just watched it again and realized how hilarious the shot of them all piled in the bottom of the fuselage screaming while falling was, brilliant. I kind of missed that so still catching stuff to enjoy.

Just watched the final battle in the river and most of those shots were practical and the robotic Spino was in the water so they overcame the problems they had in JP with the rain effecting the T rex so that was impressive and again I enjoyed it. But that is just my opinion as your comments express your opinion and opinions are like you know whats we all have them and I guess they are all of equal value at least I like to think so.

Yeah, I think I would enjoy that amusement park ride too. Just not sure how much I enjoyed it as a scene in a movie.

The final river battle is pretty good, probably because it's raining at night. My biggest gripe with that are the underwater scenes where the river bottom looks less realistic than my aquariums! JP3 is watchable, and many of the SFX are passable as well. I just think it's the weakest film in the franchise. That goes for SFX as well as everything else.