Monsters on Dinotoyblog, yes or no?

[suspsy]

the essence of the DTB is prehistoric animal figures, and should focus on REAL PREHISTORIC animal figures, not fantasy creatures nor recently extinct modern animal figures.

The woolly mammoth, the saber-toothed cat, the cave bear, the Irish elk, and a great many other famous megafauna could all be described as "recently extinct." Do they also not belong on the DTB?

[laticauda]

the essence of the DTB is prehistoric animal figures, and should focus on REAL PREHISTORIC animal figures, not fantasy creatures nor recently extinct modern animal figures.

The woolly mammoth, the saber-toothed cat, the cave bear, the Irish elk, and a great many other famous megafauna could all be described as "recently extinct." Do they also not belong on the DTB?

So what your saying is that I shouldn't write any more Woolly Mammoth reviews.    Take it out on my poor writing, not the megafuna.

[Sim]

the essence of the DTB is prehistoric animal figures, and should focus on REAL PREHISTORIC animal figures, not fantasy creatures nor recently extinct modern animal figures.

The woolly mammoth, the saber-toothed cat, the cave bear, the Irish elk, and a great many other famous megafauna could all be described as "recently extinct." Do they also not belong on the DTB?

Those animals are all prehistoric, and sauroid said the blog should focus on prehistoric animals.  sauroid makes a valid point.  I was surprised by the reviews of non-prehistoric extinct animals since the DTB is for prehistoric animal figures, but those reviews didn't bother me.  I'm not sure how I'd feel if there were lots of reviews of non-prehistoric extinct animal figures though.

[Gwangi]

The last population of woolly mammoth on Wrangle Island died out between 3,000 and 4,000 years ago. This overlaps with the end of pre-history, the beginning of the Bronze Age, and the invention of writing. And that's really what prehistory is, everything that occurred before humans starting writing stuff down. On a geologic timescale spanning billions of years it is an insignificant and arbitrary line to draw. The extinction of the ice age megafauna and the thylacine or dodo, the auk or Stellar's sea cow occurred only seconds apart when viewed through the lens of deep time. On a blog where we cover every extinct animal from the Precambrian to a mere 4,000 years ago I honestly don't think there needs to be a cut off point on what's reviewed. Suspsy is right, these reviews only serve as a reminder to those otherwise uninformed that extinction is still occurring. Except this time it's not due to volcanic eruption or a rock falling from the sky. We're the culprits, just like we were during the close of the last glacial period.

[suspsy]

Well said, Gwangi. Dickson's thylacine dates back around 23,000,000 years. The powerful thylacine dates back to about 10,000,000 years. And the modern thylacine first appeared around 4,000,000 years ago, so it absolutely can be considered a prehistoric animal. The only difference between the modern thylacine and the woolly mammoth is that the latter became extinct first.

[Gwangi]

Well said, Gwangi. Dickson's thylacine dates back around 23,000,000 years. The powerful thylacine dates back to about 10,000,000 years. And the modern thylacine first appeared around 4,000,000 years ago, so it absolutely can be considered a prehistoric animal. The only difference between the modern thylacine and the woolly mammoth is that the latter became extinct first.

Great points and the fact of the matter is, all animals alive today were around during prehistory. They're still here so we don't review them. As an example, If you live in North America you know what a whitetail deer (Odocoileus virginiana) is, they're everywhere. What you probably wouldn't know is that they're one of the oldest large mammal species on the continent with fossils dating back 3.5 million years. Meleagridinae, the family to which turkeys belong, has been around for 23 million years. And an extinct species of turkey, the California turkey (Meleagris californica) went extinct 10,000 years which would make it fair game for the blog if anyone ever produced a toy of it. Everything alive today traces it's ancestry back to "prehistory". It's not like they just appeared overnight after humans began writing things down. We live in the shadow of the world before us, we live on a planet still recovering from the losses of the ice age extinctions. We have pronghorn antelope running around North America. They're the second fastest land animal on the planet, they've been around for 2.5 million years. What are they trying to outrun? The extinct American cheetah (Miracinonyx) which went extinct 12,000 years ago. We have trees still around that drop fruit specifically for mammoths and mastodons. They're not here to eat that fruit. I know I'm going off on a tangent here. I just think this is stuff people don't think about and I feel compelled to address it when I get the chance. There is no "now" and "then" with a line dividing it. It doesn't matter if it was 65 million years ago, 10,000 years ago or 50 years ago. Once something is gone, its gone, and added to the long list of things that went before it.

[SBell]

Well said, Gwangi. Dickson's thylacine dates back around 23,000,000 years. The powerful thylacine dates back to about 10,000,000 years. And the modern thylacine first appeared around 4,000,000 years ago, so it absolutely can be considered a prehistoric animal. The only difference between the modern thylacine and the woolly mammoth is that the latter became extinct first.

Great points and the fact of the matter is, all animals alive today were around during prehistory. They're still here so we don't review them. As an example, If you live in North America you know what a whitetail deer (Odocoileus virginiana) is, they're everywhere. What you probably wouldn't know is that they're one of the oldest large mammal species on the continent with fossils dating back 3.5 million years. Meleagridinae, the family to which turkeys belong, has been around for 23 million years. And an extinct species of turkey, the California turkey (Meleagris californica) went extinct 10,000 years which would make it fair game for the blog if anyone ever produced a toy of it. Everything alive today traces it's ancestry back to "prehistory". It's not like they just appeared overnight after humans began writing things down. We live in the shadow of the world before us, we live on a planet still recovering from the losses of the ice age extinctions. We have pronghorn antelope running around North America. They're the second fastest land animal on the planet, they've been around for 2.5 million years. What are they trying to outrun? The extinct American cheetah (Miracinonyx) which went extinct 12,000 years ago. We have trees still around that drop fruit specifically for mammoths and mastodons. They're not here to eat that fruit. I know I'm going off on a tangent here. I just think this is stuff people don't think about and I feel compelled to address it when I get the chance. There is no "now" and "then" with a line dividing it. It doesn't matter if it was 65 million years ago, 10,000 years ago or 50 years ago. Once something is gone, its gone, and added to the long list of things that went before it.

But because there is the ATF--which covers still-alive flora and fauna, if you will--then the DTF is more for extinct organisms. Yes, subfossil (<10000 years extinct) and extinct-withn-recorded-history organisms kind of fall into both categories, depending on how you want to approach them. And it's not unusual for people on the DTF to engage with 'living fossil' organisms as well, appreciating them as animals that existed with what are otherwise extinct faunas.

But the question here is--do monsters, myths and fantasy belong here? Or, on the blog at least (there is, of course, a few threads dedicated to non-paleo stuff like Godzilla, non-dino acquistions, etc). I still look at that as, whatever. If someone does them, I won't read them, but if it makes them happy, whatever. But then, if someone wants to include white-tail deer in the context of ice-age mammals, nobody can stop that either.

[Gwangi]

Well said, Gwangi. Dickson's thylacine dates back around 23,000,000 years. The powerful thylacine dates back to about 10,000,000 years. And the modern thylacine first appeared around 4,000,000 years ago, so it absolutely can be considered a prehistoric animal. The only difference between the modern thylacine and the woolly mammoth is that the latter became extinct first.

Great points and the fact of the matter is, all animals alive today were around during prehistory. They're still here so we don't review them. As an example, If you live in North America you know what a whitetail deer (Odocoileus virginiana) is, they're everywhere. What you probably wouldn't know is that they're one of the oldest large mammal species on the continent with fossils dating back 3.5 million years. Meleagridinae, the family to which turkeys belong, has been around for 23 million years. And an extinct species of turkey, the California turkey (Meleagris californica) went extinct 10,000 years which would make it fair game for the blog if anyone ever produced a toy of it. Everything alive today traces it's ancestry back to "prehistory". It's not like they just appeared overnight after humans began writing things down. We live in the shadow of the world before us, we live on a planet still recovering from the losses of the ice age extinctions. We have pronghorn antelope running around North America. They're the second fastest land animal on the planet, they've been around for 2.5 million years. What are they trying to outrun? The extinct American cheetah (Miracinonyx) which went extinct 12,000 years ago. We have trees still around that drop fruit specifically for mammoths and mastodons. They're not here to eat that fruit. I know I'm going off on a tangent here. I just think this is stuff people don't think about and I feel compelled to address it when I get the chance. There is no "now" and "then" with a line dividing it. It doesn't matter if it was 65 million years ago, 10,000 years ago or 50 years ago. Once something is gone, its gone, and added to the long list of things that went before it.

But because there is the ATF--which covers still-alive flora and fauna, if you will--then the DTF is more for extinct organisms. Yes, subfossil (<10000 years extinct) and extinct-withn-recorded-history organisms kind of fall into both categories, depending on how you want to approach them. And it's not unusual for people on the DTF to engage with 'living fossil' organisms as well, appreciating them as animals that existed with what are otherwise extinct faunas.

But the question here is--do monsters, myths and fantasy belong here? Or, on the blog at least (there is, of course, a few threads dedicated to non-paleo stuff like Godzilla, non-dino acquistions, etc). I still look at that as, whatever. If someone does them, I won't read them, but if it makes them happy, whatever. But then, if someone wants to include white-tail deer in the context of ice-age mammals, nobody can stop that either.

I'm not trying to advocate the addition of extant animals to the blog. Something like a whitetail deer shouldn't be on the blog, because despite a long fossil record, it is not extinct. That's the distinction I'm making here. Extant-no. Extinct-yes. I was just trying to put things in perspective for those arguing that the thylacine and dodo have not been extinct long enough to earn a spot on the blog.

I feel like the monsters issue is a non-issue at this point. We've all said our piece, I don't think any of us reviewers are going to take over the blog with Godzilla and dragon reviews.

[SBell]

Well said, Gwangi. Dickson's thylacine dates back around 23,000,000 years. The powerful thylacine dates back to about 10,000,000 years. And the modern thylacine first appeared around 4,000,000 years ago, so it absolutely can be considered a prehistoric animal. The only difference between the modern thylacine and the woolly mammoth is that the latter became extinct first.

Great points and the fact of the matter is, all animals alive today were around during prehistory. They're still here so we don't review them. As an example, If you live in North America you know what a whitetail deer (Odocoileus virginiana) is, they're everywhere. What you probably wouldn't know is that they're one of the oldest large mammal species on the continent with fossils dating back 3.5 million years. Meleagridinae, the family to which turkeys belong, has been around for 23 million years. And an extinct species of turkey, the California turkey (Meleagris californica) went extinct 10,000 years which would make it fair game for the blog if anyone ever produced a toy of it. Everything alive today traces it's ancestry back to "prehistory". It's not like they just appeared overnight after humans began writing things down. We live in the shadow of the world before us, we live on a planet still recovering from the losses of the ice age extinctions. We have pronghorn antelope running around North America. They're the second fastest land animal on the planet, they've been around for 2.5 million years. What are they trying to outrun? The extinct American cheetah (Miracinonyx) which went extinct 12,000 years ago. We have trees still around that drop fruit specifically for mammoths and mastodons. They're not here to eat that fruit. I know I'm going off on a tangent here. I just think this is stuff people don't think about and I feel compelled to address it when I get the chance. There is no "now" and "then" with a line dividing it. It doesn't matter if it was 65 million years ago, 10,000 years ago or 50 years ago. Once something is gone, its gone, and added to the long list of things that went before it.

But because there is the ATF--which covers still-alive flora and fauna, if you will--then the DTF is more for extinct organisms. Yes, subfossil (<10000 years extinct) and extinct-withn-recorded-history organisms kind of fall into both categories, depending on how you want to approach them. And it's not unusual for people on the DTF to engage with 'living fossil' organisms as well, appreciating them as animals that existed with what are otherwise extinct faunas.

But the question here is--do monsters, myths and fantasy belong here? Or, on the blog at least (there is, of course, a few threads dedicated to non-paleo stuff like Godzilla, non-dino acquistions, etc). I still look at that as, whatever. If someone does them, I won't read them, but if it makes them happy, whatever. But then, if someone wants to include white-tail deer in the context of ice-age mammals, nobody can stop that either.

I'm not trying to advocate the addition of extant animals to the blog. Something like a whitetail deer shouldn't be on the blog, because despite a long fossil record, it is not extinct. That's the distinction I'm making here. Extant-no. Extinct-yes. I was just trying to put things in perspective for those arguing that the thylacine and dodo have not been extinct long enough to earn a spot on the blog.

I feel like the monsters issue is a non-issue at this point. We've all said our piece, I don't think any of us reviewers are going to take over the blog with Godzilla and dragon reviews.

Well, yeah, I was being a smart alec about it--I don't think it would happen though.

[Federreptil]

In the overview of the whole thread it's a strange combination:
At the one hand there is a very special discussion about what means extinct with a lot of biological facts – at the other hand there are a very loosy interpretation what kind of monster is still reviewable.

I think the DTB don't break down with a review of Godzila or Sinclair or Indominus Rex. But this schould never be the majority and I would like always a massive note for fictional characters. Movie monsters are not my cup of tea. And the separation to a naturalistic approach can not be sharp enough. This is not a nerdish sitting in the ivory tower but a necessary undertaking. Here a really good point for this view: The very wise guest post from Daniel Benson at 'Love in the Time of Chasmosaurs': http://chasmosaurs.blogspot.de/2016/01/guest-post-yes-your-velociraptors-must.html

I enjoy always a sophisticated model review about the flaws and demands for a naturalistic representation of an extinct animal. Here is e. g. some Schleich review still very polite. To be kids stuff is no excuse. The existing benchmark in the DTB is high and could be not severe enough. Starting here in the DTF was sometimes a little bit hard, if the old stagers detected my mistakes and flaws. And till now my combinations in the dioramas are not so perfect as they should be. But it's the stimulus to become better not to ease the standards. Same to the benchmarks what is a dinosaur or a other prehistoric animal: Reviewing the worst attempts and poor racketeering is well, if the line keeps clear.

[Sim]

I've understood "prehistoric animal" to mean animals that existed only in prehistoric times.  It might be true that all extant animals were around in prehistoric times, but when a term that refers to animals that existed only in prehistoric times is needed, "prehistoric animal" seems it would usually be preferable to the alternatives.  "Animals that existed only in prehistoric times" is pretty cumbersome!

I can definitely see the good that can come from reviewing figures of animals that went extinct in more recent times, e.g. showing extinction is still occuring, mainly due to humans.  I've never understood the DTB to be a blog for any extinct animal though.  I thought it was one for animals that only existed in prehistoric times.  Maybe I was mistaken about that!  And I know two extant fishes have been reviewed, I imagine due to Safari including them in a prehistoric set/line.

[Takama]

All I figured out from the blog is this

If its Extinct. then it can be reviewd.   

If it is labeled as a Dinosaur (be it generic theropod, or given a Name) then it can be reviewd.

But i still think I.Rex should not be included.  It is a monster in a Dinosaur movie.  If I.Rex is included then so should King Kong, because he is a monster in a Dinosaur movie just like the I.Rex.

[Gwangi]

All I figured out from the blog is this

If its Extinct. then it can be reviewd.   

If it is labeled as a Dinosaur (be it generic theropod, or given a Name) then it can be reviewd.

But i still think I.Rex should not be included.  It is a monster in a Dinosaur movie.  If I.Rex is included then so should King Kong, because he is a monster in a Dinosaur movie just like the I.Rex.

Yes but King Kong does not represent a prehistoric animal, nor is he inspired by one. He's a fictional giant gorilla. A movie monster in the truest sense.

As for the recently extinct animals, they represent such a small percentage of the toy animal (extinct or extant) market that I think a one off review of one is acceptable. Again, it's not like the blog will be overrun with reviews on golden toads and heath hens.

[SBell]

All I figured out from the blog is this

If its Extinct. then it can be reviewd.   

If it is labeled as a Dinosaur (be it generic theropod, or given a Name) then it can be reviewd.

But i still think I.Rex should not be included.  It is a monster in a Dinosaur movie.  If I.Rex is included then so should King Kong, because he is a monster in a Dinosaur movie just like the I.Rex.

Yes but King Kong does not represent a prehistoric animal, nor is he inspired by one. He's a fictional giant gorilla. A movie monster in the truest sense.

As for the recently extinct animals, they represent such a small percentage of the toy animal (extinct or extant) market that I think a one off review of one is acceptable. Again, it's not like the blog will be overrun with reviews on golden toads and heath hens.

Just for that, I've got a Blue Pike review coming....

[Gwangi]

Good, I look forward to it. I didn't even know there was a blue pike (we call them walleye) model.

[SBell]

Good, I look forward to it. I didn't even know there was a blue pike (we call them walleye) model.

It's a FF Yowies figure. As obscure extinct things go...!

[Gwangi]

Good, I look forward to it. I didn't even know there was a blue pike (we call them walleye) model.

It's a FF Yowies figure. As obscure extinct things go...!

Of course it's a Yowies figure. Well if you do write a review of it, and need someone to post it, I'll do it for you.

[SBell]

Good, I look forward to it. I didn't even know there was a blue pike (we call them walleye) model.

It's a FF Yowies figure. As obscure extinct things go...!

Of course it's a Yowies figure. Well if you do write a review of it, and need someone to post it, I'll do it for you.

Somewhere I'd asked what I need to do, but no one actaully said (it's only been, like, 8 years. You'd think I'd have that figured out by now!). I will see what time permits in the next little while; but I jsut might, plus some other odds and ends...!

[Gwangi]

Good, I look forward to it. I didn't even know there was a blue pike (we call them walleye) model.

It's a FF Yowies figure. As obscure extinct things go...!

Of course it's a Yowies figure. Well if you do write a review of it, and need someone to post it, I'll do it for you.

Somewhere I'd asked what I need to do, but no one actaully said (it's only been, like, 8 years. You'd think I'd have that figured out by now!). I will see what time permits in the next little while; but I jsut might, plus some other odds and ends...!

Just write it, take some pictures, and send it to a reviewer. You can shoot me a PM when you're ready and from there you can email it to me and I'll post it for you.

[Megalosaurus]

And what's the opinion of Dr. Admin?
This is his blog. So I'll respect anything he want to do about this subject.

But my opinion hasn't changed:
We should not include reviews of things that we haven't proof of their existence in the past of the earth.

In a parallel thought:
What if an Entomology forum starts to review Alien movie figures? Sure they are scifi monsters, but after all, they are inspired and modeled after insects. I think is not a good idea to do that kind of reviews.
But anyway, you have your own line of thoughts.