JURASSIC WORLD: FALLEN KINGDOM

[ITdactyl]

I am torn @Loon .  I want to see both a survival themed movie in a dinosaur filled island... and a movie about dinosaurs struggling to survive in a modern world.  The first would play to the classic tropes set by the original JP, the 2nd would be more dino-centric.  Well, at least one can wish.

I was trying to collect my thoughts about the film, but @Gwangi read my mind and said it better. 

I don't want to sound negative, but I've given up the hope that JP/JW would be the franchise that features "real" dinosaurs in film.  I'm happy with the entertainment value these mutant "dinosaurs" are providing.

Now, if the series would be turned into an anime.....

Graphic artist Dmitry Grozov of the Russian moustache: "Say no more!"




*edit* one image replaced
his artstation page: https://www.artstation.com/ahriman
artist's VK gallery:  https://vk.com/album-44180355_250053344

[Loon]

@ITdactyl, sorry, that was a joke post, parodying people freaking out about the Last Jedi.

I knew Harrison Ford at one point was considered for Grant, but I didn't know Steven Seagal was also considered for the part. Very accurate too, as it seems he doesn't get up out of that seat!

Also, that last image with Lex, ummm....wasn't she like twelve? 

[ITdactyl]

don't worry... I'm also riding on the humor... hence the anime post.

[tyrantqueen]

@ITdactyl, sorry, that was a joke post, parodying people freaking out about the Last Jedi.

I knew Harrison Ford at one point was considered for Grant, but I didn't know Steven Seagal was also considered for the part. Very accurate too, as it seems he doesn't get up out of that seat!

Also, that last image with Lex, ummm....wasn't she like twelve?

Horrible, yuck

But the other pics are quite good.

[Gwangi]

Also, that last image with Lex, ummm....wasn't she like twelve? 

Yeah, that image is a bit jarring. But I guess that's anime for ya.

[ITdactyl]

I've replaced the problematic image with something more appropriate.  'My sincere apologies for not immediately realizing it'd be a cause for concern.

Right... err... back to Fallen Kingdom...

[Gwangi]

I've replaced the problematic image with something more appropriate.  'My sincere apologies for not immediately realizing it'd be a cause for concern.

Right... err... back to Fallen Kingdom...

Probably should have went with the sexy Malcolm one.

[ITdactyl]

Probably should have went with the sexy Malcolm one.

I didn't notice that... curiosity took over and I checked Dmitry's gallery again... and... MY EYES!!! GAAAAAHHHH!!!! hahahahaha   NONONONONO... I'm not posting that.


On a sidenote... Fallen Kingdom just joined the Billionaire's club.. hitting $1B in worldwide ticket sales.  Fictional dinosaurs sell... hopefully this paves the way for a proper dinosaur movie sometime in the near future.

[DinoToyForum]

Maybe R @Reptilia has better examples, but I thought of a couple minor ones:
The location of the lake being moved so it is adjacent to the ocean.
I know geothermal activity is mentioned in the books, but I don't think it is ever mentioned in the movies, so the park being built on an actual island-destroying volcano seems to be an adjustment/second thought for plot convenience to me.

From The Lost World: "Hammond ran everything on geothermal power.  It was never meant to need replenishing."

Fair enough. Then a massive island-destroying volcano, while still a stretch, is not too ridiculous.

Not even a stretch really.  In virtually every form of media, Isla Nublar had volcanic activity.  And as residents of Hawaii can probably attest to these days, just because a volcano has been quiet for 20 years, doesn't mean it can't erupt and devastate its surroundings.  As for your opinions on the hybrids, the dinosaurs of Jurassic Park have always been hybrids.  Even in the books, they state that they typically use amphibian or reptilian DNA to fill in the gaps in the genetic sequences.  Therefore, they aren't dinosaurs.  They're mutants.  That's why the T. rex's visual acuity is based on movement, the Velociraptors are enormous and featherless, and the Dilophosaurus is runty with venomous glands that aren't supported by the fossil record(to say nothing of the frill).  Manipulating said genes to create an entirely new species is childsplay to Wu at this point.

Spoiler

And cloning a human would be far less difficult as the DNA of the donor would have far fewer gene sequence gaps.  What IS unrealistic is Maisie's age.  As near as I can determine, Hammond passed away between Jurassic Park III and Jurassic World, if not between TLW and JPIII.  Considering Maisie is at most 11, then either there are a ton of test tube abortions that didn't work out, or something else is afoot.  It IS a shame that the constructed island was just a front, a non-volcanic habitat to house the dinosaurs would've been far preferable to releasing them onto the world at large.  Bright side, there's only 11 species.  And while many of those are comprised of multiple individuals, a lot of the more dangerous ones aren't.  Blue is, so far, the only living Velociraptor.  Rexy is the only living T. rex and she's pusing old age for her species, even in the best circumstances.  While I'm fairly certain there was more than one Allosaurus seen, there was only the one Carnotaurus.  And there was only one Mosasaurus.  No matter how well they take care of themselves, in a few years, Velociraptor, Tyrannosaurus rex, Carnotaurus, and Mosasaurus will again be extinct.

[close]

"massive island-destroying volcano" is still a stretch to me.

I think I've stated my opinion on this already but, yeah, the original dinos were hybrids out of necessity because there were gaps in the code. However, they were still genuine attempts to recreate actual dinosaurs from substantially complete DNA samples, which is why they have actual dinosaur names. And in that sense I think it is fair to call them dinosaurs.

This does raise the question of how numerous and how large were the gaps in the real dinosaur DNA? Does this ever get mentioned in the movie or book? I presumed it would differ from amber sample to sample but always imagined the dinosaur DNA was 98% or so complete*, with only very small gaps to be filled with the closest compatible DNA possible. The writer introduced this into the plot so that life could "find a way" but I don't think it was introduced to explain the characteristics you mention. If the gaps were larger, then your interpretation makes sense and it is an interesting take. But whatever the size of the gaps, it isn't the only interpretation...

It seems equally likely that those characteristics are the actual characteristics of the dinosaurs (in the Mesozoic of the JPverse). Note, for example, that the fossil skeleton Grant is excavating (in Montana, not Inner Mongolia!) and the claw he carries around with him is the same size as the genetically engineered ones we see later. And isn't the reason the Velociraptors are featherless because Velociraptors were inaccurate in the 1980s when Jurassic Park was written, so that's how Crichton (and Speilberg) envisioned them? Most of the dinosaurs are pretty spot on for the time and the ones that are inaccurate are often intentionally so for storytelling and cinematic reasons. As for visual acuity, they had to imbue the dinosaurs with behavioural traits, and that one works well for storytelling. I don't think any other explanation is required.

They're not mutants, by the way, but that's just semantics.

*I realise the size and number of the gaps would be less important than the position of the gaps (some parts of the DNA would be more important than other parts for the purpose of building a dino) but you know what I mean. Let's keep it simple!

[Patrx]

Now, if the series would be turned into an anime.....

SNIP

Graphic artist Dmitry Grozov of the Russian moustache: "Say no more!"
his artstation page: https://www.artstation.com/ahriman
artist's VK gallery:  https://vk.com/album-44180355_250053344

Whoah, check out the utensils in the "Raptors in the Kitchen" shot! The foremost one is deliberately drawn differently, to look like part of the animation cel rather than the background painting, because that's the one that's about to fall. Great attention to detail!

[Gwangi]

And isn't the reason the Velociraptors are featherless because Velociraptors were inaccurate in the 1980s when Jurassic Park was written, so that's how Crichton (and Speilberg) envisioned them?

Crichton used Greg Paul as a source and he was feathering dromaeosaurs back in the 80's, he's also the one to blame for the Velociraptor size issue (he lumped Deinonychus into Velociraptor). As I recall it though the dinosaurs in the book were even more reptilian than those in the film, complete with flicking tongues and venomous bites. Either way, there was no direct evidence for feathers on dinosaurs but it was greatly inferred based on Ostrom's compairson of Deinonychus and Archeopteryx and the whole Dinosaur Renaissance thing.

Darren Naish even protested the original "Jurassic Park" with a home made T-shirt.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/25-years-after-jurassic-park-part-1/

[DinoToyForum]

And isn't the reason the Velociraptors are featherless because Velociraptors were inaccurate in the 1980s when Jurassic Park was written, so that's how Crichton (and Speilberg) envisioned them?

Crichton used Greg Paul as a source and he was feathering dromaeosaurs back in the 80's, he's also the one to blame for the Velociraptor size issue (he lumped Deinonychus into Velociraptor). As I recall it though the dinosaurs in the book were even more reptilian than those in the film, complete with flicking tongues and venomous bites. Either way, there was no direct evidence for feathers on dinosaurs but it was greatly inferred based on Ostrom's compairson of Deinonychus and Archeopteryx and the whole Dinosaur Renaissance thing.

Darren Naish even protested the original "Jurassic Park" with a home made T-shirt.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrapod-zoology/25-years-after-jurassic-park-part-1/

Oh, I knew that Crichton referenced Greg Paul, and you're right that Greg Paul was quite progressive for his time and added a sparse covering of feathers on his dromaeosaurs. Actually, does anyone have a picture of the 'Velociraptor' antirrhopus as it appears in Predatory Dinosaurs of the World? I know of the one leaping onto a Tenontosaurus, but was there a more simple one in profile?

Did Crichton ever say why he omitted the feathers if he was using Paul as his source? Maybe, given the lack of direct evidence, he decided it was an artistic liberty, and preferred Bakker's vision that was still floating around back then as well (and persisted well into the 90s in popular dinosaur books):

[PumperKrickel]

deleted

[Loon]

As for the movies, christ, just imagine feathered raptors with early 90's cgi....

[Gwangi]

The only other 'Velociraptor' antirrhopus in Predatory Dinosaurs was a head study in the species profile towards the back of the book. It was also feathered.

Like I said before, Crichton's dinosaurs were more reptilian than those in the movie. I'm not surprised that they weren't feathered. Plus I seem to recall Wu talking about making dinosaurs the way the public expected them to be vs. what they would have actually looked like which does tie into "Jurassic World".

I'm sure the complications of rendering feathers with CGI didn't help the situation for the movie, though I still doubt Spielberg would have allowed feathers even if he could have.

[Shadowknight1]

The only other 'Velociraptor' antirrhopus in Predatory Dinosaurs was a head study in the species profile towards the back of the book. It was also feathered.

Like I said before, Crichton's dinosaurs were more reptilian than those in the movie. I'm not surprised that they weren't feathered. Plus I seem to recall Wu talking about making dinosaurs the way the public expected them to be vs. what they would have actually looked like which does tie into "Jurassic World".

I'm sure the complications of rendering feathers with CGI didn't help the situation for the movie, though I still doubt Spielberg would have allowed feathers even if he could have.

Specifically, Wu was trying to convince Hammond that they should eliminate their current stock of animals and go to a different version, ie. slow them down, make them more passive.  Basically, make them slow and dumb which is what the public expectations were.  Hammond retorted that what they had were real dinosaurs and that's what the public wanted.  Wu did say something along the lines of that they really weren't real because of genetic modifications(which there would have to be more than just plugging in certain genes, gotta make sure they can digest modern plant/animal matter and breathe in our current atmosphere).  Hammond just brushed him off....book Hammond was a real jerk lol

[Syndicate Bias]

Was kinda hoping the Carno had been introduced in TLW now that you mention the books. Don't know how they would've gone about the camouflage though.

I would've loved to see the pack of raptors that killed one of their own viciously as seen by i forget her name while she was watching the whole thing. That would've been a nice and dark twist to TLW.  Wish stuff like this made it into the movies

[ITdactyl]

Was kinda hoping the Carno had been introduced in TLW now that you mention the books. Don't know how they would've gone about the camouflage though.

I would've loved to see the pack of raptors that killed one of their own viciously as seen by i forget her name while she was watching the whole thing. That would've been a nice and dark twist to TLW.  Wish stuff like this made it into the movies

The Carno part of the book was genuinely gripping.  I did wish I could've seen that in live action, though I am satisfied with the Carno we got in Fallen Kingdom, and a similar "chameleon" scene from the Indominus Rex.

As for the raptors killing another raptor - are you referring to the part in the book where the pack ate the baby raptor?  It hasn't been shown in the films, but the TV series Primeval did have a very similar scene.

[Syndicate Bias]

Yes that one! Also I didn't watch alot of Primaeval even though i loved the episodes i watched. Im gonna have to see whichever it is you mean is kinda similar to the raptor part of the jp books

[ITdactyl]

S @Syndicate Bias - The scene's from episode 1 of the 2nd season (or the 7th episode overall).

This discussion got me interested in the books again... I'll probably read through the 2 this weekend.  I do recall Crichton's descriptions of the mannerisms of the dinosaurs as very reptilian (pointed out by Gwangi) with only a hint of avian in the postures and flocking behavior.  I'm curious if I missed any details during my first read through (which was a long time ago, I think during the launch of TLW).

I am hoping JW3 would be the last movie of this franchise - and that future films would have dinosaurs far removed from the 90's tropes.  Then again, Jaws was shown in 1975, and until now the blood thirsty shark trope is still being milked ("The Shallows", "Sharknado", "The Meg" etc).