PNSO New for 2025

[Sim]

I find bowing to public pressure and making lipless theropods makes me think of bowing to public pressure and making Tyrannosaurus over and over again.  Companies make Tyrannosaurus so frequently because a majority of people want this, so is that essentially different to making lipless theropods because a majority of people want this?  I'm not saying companies shouldn't make Tyrannosaurus, although I think it would be better to not have any one animal species get such overrepresentation.  I'm just observing a pattern here.

[thomasw100]

I find bowing to public pressure and making lipless theropods makes me think of bowing to public pressure and making Tyrannosaurus over and over again.  Companies make Tyrannosaurus so frequently because a majority of people want this, so is that essentially different to making lipless theropods because a majority of people want this?  I'm not saying companies shouldn't make Tyrannosaurus, although I think it would be better to not have any one animal species get such overrepresentation.  I'm just observing a pattern here.

Honestly I think one has to look at the proportion of T. rex figures relative to other species a company produces. PNSO has produced maybe 4 or 5 T. rex figures over the years out of more than 100 figures. Haolonggood has produced 2 T. rex figures out of a little less than 50 figures they have produced in total. Both these companies have given us a rich diversity of species over the years.

I do not own a single T. rex figure myself, but I can happily live with these amounts of T. rexes being produced. If they sell like hot cakes, the two companies cash in enough money to be able to produce all the other species we would like to get. So in a way we have to thank the T. rex enthusiasts because they help to fund the production of figures of more obscure species.

[Sim]

If they sell like hot cakes, the two companies cash in enough money to be able to produce all the other species we would like to get. So in a way we have to thank the T. rex enthusiasts because they help to fund the production of figures of more obscure species.

But wouldn't this reasoning apply to lipless theropods too?  If they sell well, it can lead companies to make other species people want?  Although I'm not entirely convinced the profits from Tyrannosaurus figures directly allow less popular species to be made.  I think a lot of species can hold their own.  For example, Haolonggood started with non-Tyrannosaurus species, and after making their first Tyrannosaurus they produced lots of other species which I doubt were funded solely by their Tyrannosaurus.  Also if Eofauna benefitted extra from their Tyrannosaurus, they didn't invest it in another dinosaur, they instead made another elephant in addition to one elephant and one dinosaur they were producing anyway.  The target audience for dinosaurs and for mammals isn't identical.
Going back to companies bowing to public pressure, I think that's why Haolonggood and PNSO aren't making dromaeosaurids.  They know featherless ones are incorrect and so they just don't make them as that isn't the way the majority of the public sees them.

[thomasw100]

If they sell like hot cakes, the two companies cash in enough money to be able to produce all the other species we would like to get. So in a way we have to thank the T. rex enthusiasts because they help to fund the production of figures of more obscure species.

But wouldn't this reasoning apply to lipless theropods too?  If they sell well, it can lead companies to make other species people want?  Although I'm not entirely convinced the profits from Tyrannosaurus figures directly allow less popular species to be made.  I think a lot of species can hold their own.  For example, Haolonggood started with non-Tyrannosaurus species, and after making their first Tyrannosaurus they produced lots of other species which I doubt were funded solely by their Tyrannosaurus.  Also if Eofauna benefitted extra from their Tyrannosaurus, they didn't invest it in another dinosaur, they instead made another elephant in addition to one elephant and one dinosaur they were producing anyway.  The target audience for dinosaurs and for mammals isn't identical.
Going back to companies bowing to public pressure, I think that's why Haolonggood and PNSO aren't making dromaeosaurids.  They know featherless ones are incorrect and so they just don't make them as that isn't the way the majority of the public sees them.

I would not say that my point equally applies to the lipped theropods, because they make up a much larger fraction of the species the two above mentioned companies have produced. PNSO for example has made some 25 carnivore theropods without lips, which would be about 25 % of what they have produced in total. My point was about catering with a small fraction of the production to what you referred to as public pressure.

[Joel1905]

I don't think PNSO is considering to remake lot of theropods with lips now that Haolonggood has shared that the Chinese like depictions of lipless theropods better than lipped theropods. Like Haolonggood, PNSO probably sells more figures within China than in the rest of the world. Meaning that lipped theropods other than T. rex probably wont sell as well worldwide that they are worth the investment.

I'm calling bull on this. PNSO strive for accuracy and even their newer artworks depict lipped theropods.

[Joel1905]

The Tyrannotitan bugs me as well, but it would be pretty darned pointless for PNSO to release yet another T. rex with exposed teeth. It would be utterly redundant and flat out boring at this point, and I do think Zhao Chuang at least is fully aware of that. And there is that famous digital rendition of a lipped T. rex out there. You don't go to all the trouble of creating and releasing an image like that if you're not serious about making a toy. Unless maybe you're Rebor.

At this point, there are not very many big theropods that PNSO hasn't already tackled. Abelisaurs, however, are still largely untouched. Megaraptorans as well.
 

PNSO really should consider remaking their previous theropods with lips.

Tyrannosaurus Rex, Tarbosaurus, Albertosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Megalosaurus, Torvosaurus & Carnotaurus in particular.

I can scarcely imagine a more tedious lineup. Like reliving 2022-2023 but with less-visible teeth.

I can scarcely imagine a more tedious comment.

A lot of people will want up to date (lipped) models of some of the most iconic and well known theropods. Why do you have a problem with that?

[SRF]

I don't think PNSO is considering to remake lot of theropods with lips now that Haolonggood has shared that the Chinese like depictions of lipless theropods better than lipped theropods. Like Haolonggood, PNSO probably sells more figures within China than in the rest of the world. Meaning that lipped theropods other than T. rex probably wont sell as well worldwide that they are worth the investment.

I'm calling bull on this. PNSO strive for accuracy and even their newer artworks depict lipped theropods.

How many of those artworks are of species that PNSO already made into figures?

[Concavenator]

PNSO really should consider remaking their previous theropods with lips.

Tyrannosaurus Rex, Tarbosaurus, Albertosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Megalosaurus, Torvosaurus & Carnotaurus in particular.

By "remaking their previous theropods with lips", do you mean that you want the sculpts to stay the same, just modified to have lips?

Because mind you, some of the figures you mention wouldn't get "fixed" just by having lips added (like the Carnotaurus, Torvosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus and maybe Tarbosaurus too), as they have inaccuracies beyond simply being lipless. On those cases, rather than just having lips added, they would benefit from completely new sculpts (depicting them as lipped, obviously).

IMO, I think something like an updated Carnotaurus would make for a much more appreciated and interesting release than a random fragmentary taxon like Stellasaurus or "Sinopliosaurus", regardless of the latter two not having been made before.

How many of those artworks are of species that PNSO already made into figures?

At least some of them. Even the artwork that was included with their Acrocanthosaurus and Sinraptor figures depicted them as lipped, ironically, despite the figures being lipless:




These figures were released back in 2022, prior to the famous Cullen paper (2023), yet PNSO was representing theropods with lips on at least some of their paleoart before the aforementioned paper. Some of their even older theropods, like their first Giganotosaurus and Yangchuanosaurus (the one that came with the Chungkingosaurus) were also lipped, so the "Cameron was lipless because it was in the works before the Cullen paper" argument (for example) just doesn't make sense.

Some companies have been making lipped theropod figures for years at this point, and pretty much everyone agrees it's more realistic to depict theropods with lips.

What if new PNSO T.rex will be lipless too ? 

It's been indeed confirmed that PNSO will be making a lipped Tyrannosaurus. We don't know when, but it's coming sooner or later. Whether it'll be half-lipped or fully lipped (or half-lipped and then fully-lipped  ), we'll have to see, though.

Plus, there would be no reason for them to release yet another lipless Tyrannosaurus. Cameron is perfectly good for that.

[suspsy]

For certain it would make little to no sense to simply modify old sculpts to have lips. If you're going to do an updated version of any dinosaur, then it should be a brand new sculpt, period.

I also don't believe that Sinraptor or Tyrannotitan or Meraxes or Mapusaurus is popular enough to get a second version any time soon, but I do think that a third Giganotosaurus is a possibility somewhere in the future. And it should definitely have lips. But I'd much rather see PNSO make one of those tyrannosaurs I listed previously. Or some abelisaurs.

[thomasw100]

IMO, I think something like an updated Carnotaurus would make for a much more appreciated and interesting release than a random fragmentary taxon like Stellasaurus or "Sinopliosaurus", regardless of the latter two not having been made before.

I am sorry but I do disagree with your opinion about Stellasaurus. I particularly enjoy to have the inferred anagenetic lineage from Styracosaurus to Pachyrhinosaurus being visualized by the respective figures. I would love to get the line completed with Einiosaurus and Achelousaurus.

[SRF]

@Concavenator in his post J @Joel1905 was referring to new artwork from PNSO. To me that doesn't include artwork from 2022.

[suspsy]

Stellasaurus' nasal horn and frill are known, which is enough material for a reconstruction. It's not like centrosaurines had radical variation in body shape.

[Joel1905]

PNSO really should consider remaking their previous theropods with lips.

Tyrannosaurus Rex, Tarbosaurus, Albertosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Megalosaurus, Torvosaurus & Carnotaurus in particular.

By "remaking their previous theropods with lips", do you mean that you want the sculpts to stay the same, just modified to have lips?

Because mind you, some of the figures you mention wouldn't get "fixed" just by having lips added (like the Carnotaurus, Torvosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus and maybe Tarbosaurus too), as they have inaccuracies beyond simply being lipless. On those cases, rather than just having lips added, they would benefit from completely new sculpts (depicting them as lipped, obviously).

IMO, I think something like an updated Carnotaurus would make for a much more appreciated and interesting release than a random fragmentary taxon like Stellasaurus or "Sinopliosaurus", regardless of the latter two not having been made before.

How many of those artworks are of species that PNSO already made into figures?

At least some of them. Even the artwork that was included with their Acrocanthosaurus and Sinraptor figures depicted them as lipped, ironically, despite the figures being lipless:




These figures were released back in 2022, prior to the famous Cullen paper (2023), yet PNSO was representing theropods with lips on at least some of their paleoart before the aforementioned paper. Some of their even older theropods, like their first Giganotosaurus and Yangchuanosaurus (the one that came with the Chungkingosaurus) were also lipped, so the "Cameron was lipless because it was in the works before the Cullen paper" argument (for example) just doesn't make sense.

Some companies have been making lipped theropod figures for years at this point, and pretty much everyone agrees it's more realistic to depict theropods with lips.

What if new PNSO T.rex will be lipless too ? 

It's been indeed confirmed that PNSO will be making a lipped Tyrannosaurus. We don't know when, but it's coming sooner or later. Whether it'll be half-lipped or fully lipped (or half-lipped and then fully-lipped  ), we'll have to see, though.

Plus, there would be no reason for them to release yet another lipless Tyrannosaurus. Cameron is perfectly good for that.

No. I mean new sculpts of those Theropods that include lips as well as other accurate changes.

[Joel1905]

I don't think PNSO is considering to remake lot of theropods with lips now that Haolonggood has shared that the Chinese like depictions of lipless theropods better than lipped theropods. Like Haolonggood, PNSO probably sells more figures within China than in the rest of the world. Meaning that lipped theropods other than T. rex probably wont sell as well worldwide that they are worth the investment.

I'd like to let people know that this is not true. I've scoured through Haolonggoods social media and they've not said this anywhere as far as I can see. Their reasoning behind the lipless Rex was because the model makers thought it looked more 'fierce' and they aren't ruling out making a variant WITH lips.

As far as PNSO, there is no chance that they'd forgo their scientific credentials for alleged preferences from the general public. Even Zhao himself has talked about most theropods (except Spinosaurids) having lips.

PNSO are working even more in tandem with palaeontologists to make their figures now, so this conjecture makes ZERO sense.

[Manospundylus gigas]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

Edit: expect the same kind of paleomeme now with exoparia in theropods, although the paper doesnt talk about other oral tissues or the innacuracy of the expossed rictus, there have already been claims about eofauna rex predicting it despite its oral tissue has nothing to do with exoparia.

[Joel1905]

I don't think PNSO is considering to remake lot of theropods with lips now that Haolonggood has shared that the Chinese like depictions of lipless theropods better than lipped theropods. Like Haolonggood, PNSO probably sells more figures within China than in the rest of the world. Meaning that lipped theropods other than T. rex probably wont sell as well worldwide that they are worth the investment.

I'm calling bull on this. PNSO strive for accuracy and even their newer artworks depict lipped theropods.

How many of those artworks are of species that PNSO already made into figures?

https://www.facebook.com/share/18KXd96kJF/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/1Xosm2c23V/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/12EUD6a5AF2/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/198kaiwsD6/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/1C5dDGQV16/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/19fiWM9ov9/?mibextid=wwXIfr


These are all newer pieces by Zhao (ie within the last 18 months) and they're all fully lipped.

[Joel1905]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

It's not a paleo meme lol

It's from the Nabavizadeh paper, who by the way says there's nothing inaccurate about the cheekless look. If anything, I see more pro-cheek sentiment from the public. Also let's not forget that cheeks are a mammalian adaptation for suckling.

Many esteemed paleoartists draw Ceratopsians & Hadrosaurs with lips rather than cheeks now.

[Joel1905]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

It's not a paleo meme lol

It's from the Nabavizadeh paper, who by the way says there's nothing inaccurate about the cheekless look. If anything, I see more pro-cheek sentiment from the public. Also let's not forget that cheeks are a mammalian adaptation for suckling.

Many esteemed paleoartists draw Ceratopsians & Hadrosaurs with lips rather than cheeks
now.

And you're wrong about lipless theropods being "nor less accurate", because the majority of theropods DEFINITELY had lips, meanwhile there's no such evidence that Ornithischians had cheeks. Ornithischians with lizard-like lips instead of cheeks is just as valid as ones with cheeks.

[Manospundylus gigas]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

It's not a paleo meme lol

It's from the Nabavizadeh paper, who by the way says there's nothing inaccurate about the cheekless look. If anything, I see more pro-cheek sentiment from the public. Also let's not forget that cheeks are a mammalian adaptation for suckling.

Many esteemed paleoartists draw Ceratopsians & Hadrosaurs with lips rather than cheeks now.

Yes, right here you are the clear example of the problem, the paper was about cheeks, the muscle, not about the skin flaps, learn the difference, it is stated in the paper that skin flaps are still possible, even the author has been defending it, there are many avian dinosaurs with skin flaps, they still do not have cheeks. The same thing with exoparia.

So yeah "LOL" is a paleomeme, read the paper or paleontologist talking about the decission of giving skin flaps to triceratops in prehistoric planet but not to pachycephalosaurus.

edit: atuchins lokiceratops paper reconstruction, skin flaps, no cheeks.

[Joel1905]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

It's not a paleo meme lol

It's from the Nabavizadeh paper, who by the way says there's nothing inaccurate about the cheekless look. If anything, I see more pro-cheek sentiment from the public. Also let's not forget that cheeks are a mammalian adaptation for suckling.

Many esteemed paleoartists draw Ceratopsians & Hadrosaurs with lips rather than cheeks now.

Yes, right here you are the clear example of the problem, the paper was about cheeks, the muscle, not about the skin flaps, learn the difference, it is stated in the paper that skin flaps are still possible, even the author has been defending it, there are many avian dinosaurs with skin flaps, they still do not have cheeks. The same thing with exoparia.

So yeah "LOL" is a paleomeme, read the paper or paleontologist talking about the decission of giving skin flaps to triceratopr in prehistoric planet but not to pachycephalosaurus.

"Read the paper" "learn the difference"

You're coming off as very obnoxious, snide and passive aggressive. I have read the paper, and as I said, Nabavizadeh himself says lips and cheeks on Ornithischians are both as accurate as each other with the information that we have ☺️

I have several good friends who are published Paleontologists, and they agree given the evidence at hand.