PNSO New for 2025

[Manospundylus gigas]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

It's not a paleo meme lol

It's from the Nabavizadeh paper, who by the way says there's nothing inaccurate about the cheekless look. If anything, I see more pro-cheek sentiment from the public. Also let's not forget that cheeks are a mammalian adaptation for suckling.

Many esteemed paleoartists draw Ceratopsians & Hadrosaurs with lips rather than cheeks now.

Yes, right here you are the clear example of the problem, the paper was about cheeks, the muscle, not about the skin flaps, learn the difference, it is stated in the paper that skin flaps are still possible, even the author has been defending it, there are many avian dinosaurs with skin flaps, they still do not have cheeks. The same thing with exoparia.

So yeah "LOL" is a paleomeme, read the paper or paleontologist talking about the decission of giving skin flaps to triceratopr in prehistoric planet but not to pachycephalosaurus.

"Read the paper" "learn the difference"

You're coming off as very obnoxious, snide and passive aggressive. I have read the paper, and as I said, Nabavizadeh himself says lips and cheeks on Ornithischians are both as accurate as each other with the information that we have ☺️

I have several good friends who are published Paleontologists, and they agree given the evidence at hand.

Again, cheeks are muscles, ornithischians didnt have cheeks, skin flaps is oral tissue, that are present in living dinosaurs, they can prevent food falling out of the mouth, and given ceratopsians diet and morphology they are expected and more supported than not having anything at all. Theres nothing more accurate in the aesthetic of PNSO and others "open" mouth ceratopsians than "skin flapped" reconstructions seen in actual papers or documentaries.

Bringing Nabavizadeh paper clearly shows the misunderstandidng because the paper is not against skin flaps or about oral tissue but about muscle and mechanics.

[thomasw100]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

Edit: expect the same kind of paleomeme now with exoparia in theropods, although the paper doesnt talk about other oral tissues or the innacuracy of the expossed rictus, there have already been claims about eofauna rex predicting it despite its oral tissue has nothing to do with exoparia.

There is the book by Nabavizadeh and Weishampel which addresses the question of cheeks vs. pseudocheeks in great detail. I think that PNSO bases their approach to reconstructing ornithischians largely on this work. I recall that Zhao Chuang makes reference to the work of Nabavizadeh in one of his making of videos.

From reading this book, it appears to me that dinosaurs including ornithischians did not have cheeks in the classic sense like mammals have them. Anything beyond this is then an interpretation of the reconstruction of the muscular configuration in the skull and there is (as is often the case in science) more than one interpretation.

As I said in another post in relation to a different topic, science is never settled.

[Concavenator]

@Concavenator in his post J @Joel1905 was referring to new artwork from PNSO. To me that doesn't include artwork from 2022.

If they were depicting theropods with lips in 2022, I don't see why they wouldn't in 2025. 

[Manospundylus gigas]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps... so yes, theropods without lips could be due to consumer preferences, and it wouldnt be different from their approach with ceratopsians, nor less accurate. 

Edit: expect the same kind of paleomeme now with exoparia in theropods, although the paper doesnt talk about other oral tissues or the innacuracy of the expossed rictus, there have already been claims about eofauna rex predicting it despite its oral tissue has nothing to do with exoparia.

There is the book by Nabavizadeh and Weishampel which addresses the question of cheeks vs. pseudocheeks in great detail. I think that PNSO bases their approach to reconstructing ornithischians largely on this work. I recall that Zhao Chuang makes reference to the work of Nabavizadeh in one of his making of videos.

From reading this book, it appears to me that dinosaurs including ornithischians did not have cheeks in the classic sense like mammals have them. Anything beyond this is then an interpretation of the reconstruction of the muscular configuration in the skull and there is (as is often the case in science) more than one interpretation.

As I said in another post in relation to a different topic, science is never settled.

Exactly, no dinosaur had cheeks, theropods and sauropods never had, ornithischians were often portrayed with them, with cheeks, actual muscles, but Nabavizadeh did an excellent work arguin against them, they clearly didnt have cheeks, as muscles like mammals have. But there isnt any reasearch against skin flaps, no reason to omit them, they would be very useful and are present in avian dinosaurs, turtles...



Theres nothing more accurate in "open mouth" reconstructions than in "cheeky" (but by cheeky im not referring to the muscle, but to the appearance due to the skin flaps), only aesthetics and preference, and because people are now so used to that appearance, many brands like PNSO have chosen to portray them like that, althoug it is no more accurate than one that has skin flaps, but both are more accuerate that one that has cheeks.

[Turkeysaurus]

Herbivorous reptiles eat plant without flaps just fine.

Only bird eats plants as main food source is a Hoatzin and who knows why and when birds evolve those skin flaps.

I think noone knows if they had flaps or not. PNSO's choice is based on majority of reptiles i guess.

[thomasw100]

Theres nothing more accurate in "open mouth" reconstructions than in "cheeky" (but by cheeky im not referring to the muscle, but to the appearance due to the skin flaps), only aesthetics and preference, and because people are now so used to that appearance, many brands like PNSO have chosen to portray them like that, althoug it is no more accurate than one that has skin flaps, but both are more accuerate that one that has cheeks.

OK now I understand from where some of the lets say confusion in this discussion comes. I understand the term "cheeks" as the classic muscular structure analogous to mammals. Anything else should be termed differently, either by referring to "pseudocheeks" or "skin flaffs".

And I agree that given the present state of knowledge, both the "open mouth" and the "skin flaff" reconstruction would appear equally possible. One can of course bring forward arguments based on functional morphology which would lend support to the presence of some structure that keeps food in the mouth.

But again this is not a proof in the strict sense, only one hypothesis with some level of probability. We must wait until a ceratopsian or hadrosaur with rather complete soft tissue preservation of the head will be found.

[Turkeysaurus]

Of course they bow down to the market and the tastes of consumers. In recent years we have had to suffer countless ceratopsids and other ornithischians affected by the paleomeme of "no cheeks = no other oral tissue", up to the latest Stellasaurus, which looks worse without any skin flaps, even though not a single study has ever been published, not one, against skin flaps, or in favor of their total absence. However, here they are, only because "paleofans" misinterpreted a study and adopted that aesthetics and they are so used to it that it is what they have for accuracy now, although it is less supported (by morphology) than having skin flaps. Even Prehistoric Planet and the upcoming Walking with Dinosaurs have suffered criticism from pedantic and ignorant "fans" because it was inaccurate that the Triceratops had skin flaps.

I think PNSO's preference isn't based on popularity. Based on iguanas and many other reptiles which don't need flaps to consume plant matter. I remember Zhao using that example in one of those pnso videos.

[SRF]

I don't think PNSO is considering to remake lot of theropods with lips now that Haolonggood has shared that the Chinese like depictions of lipless theropods better than lipped theropods. Like Haolonggood, PNSO probably sells more figures within China than in the rest of the world. Meaning that lipped theropods other than T. rex probably wont sell as well worldwide that they are worth the investment.

I'm calling bull on this. PNSO strive for accuracy and even their newer artworks depict lipped theropods.

How many of those artworks are of species that PNSO already made into figures?

https://www.facebook.com/share/18KXd96kJF/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/1Xosm2c23V/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/12EUD6a5AF2/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/198kaiwsD6/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/1C5dDGQV16/?mibextid=wwXIfr

https://www.facebook.com/share/19fiWM9ov9/?mibextid=wwXIfr


These are all newer pieces by Zhao (ie within the last 18 months) and they're all fully lipped.

But none of those is a species PNSO has produced in figure form earlier. As long as they keep selling enough of their lipless Tarbosaurus, Torvosaurus and others, business wise there really isn't a necessity for PNSO to redo these taxons with lips. Not in the immediate future at least.

T. Rex of course being a whole different story in that regard.

[DavidJamesArmsby]

The only theropod I can reasonably see PNSO tackling again and giving lips to besides T. rex is Carnotaurus. Just because it's an older, jankier figure and a popular enough species to sell twice.

I'd welcome it too, as I'm not really satisfied with any Carnotaurus on the market so far.

[Cpt Red 3eard]

The only theropod I can reasonably see PNSO tackling again and giving lips to besides T. rex is Carnotaurus. Just because it's an older, jankier figure and a popular enough species to sell twice.

I'd welcome it too, as I'm not really satisfied with any Carnotaurus on the market so far.

I've been holding out on purchasing one at that scale in hopes that PNSO does a redux.

[HD-man]

Based on iguanas and many other reptiles which don't need flaps to consume plant matter.

Not a great analogy, given that (unlike ornithischians) they are both ectotherms & non-chewers

[oscars_dinos]

looks like pnso is having a sale on there amazon, but the two most recent figures are charging for shipping regardless if you have prime (usually I never pay for shipping since it covers that) is anyone on the same boat as I am hoping that they'll change that? I feel like they are just doing that since they are new figures

[Halichoeres]

A lot of people will want up to date (lipped) models of some of the most iconic and well known theropods. Why do you have a problem with that?

Because each of those would take a slot that could instead be something interesting and unlike what they have made before. Evolution has explored a vast array of morphologies over the last half billion years, and PNSO has barely begun to tap its potential.

[Turkeysaurus]

@Concavenator in his post J @Joel1905 was referring to new artwork from PNSO. To me that doesn't include artwork from 2022.

If they were depicting theropods with lips in 2022, I don't see why they wouldn't in 2025. 

I think Dr. Thomas Carr's daspletosaurus facial integument psper in 2017 was the latest pro lipless argument. Still plenty of stuff is based on that paper.



Pro lips gain favor over lipless again scientifically recently.

If they can refute it with a strong paper , it'll be a sad day for collectors with modificated PNSOs. 

[suspsy]

I've heard through the grapevine that Carr is working on another anti-lip paper. But I've also heard that there are two more pro-lip papers coming out, so I reckon no one should be overly concerned. It's true that Carr has dedicated his career to studying tyrannosaurs, but that certainly doesn't mean that he has the final word on lips or any other tyrant-related topic.

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

I wouldn't let lips or no lips bothering me considering it's such a heavily debated issue. Have one of each then it wouldn't matter as much?

[GnastyGnorc]

looks like pnso is having a sale on there amazon, but the two most recent figures are charging for shipping regardless if you have prime (usually I never pay for shipping since it covers that) is anyone on the same boat as I am hoping that they'll change that? I feel like they are just doing that since they are new figures

I have also being waiting for them to be available with free shipping. Not sure if this is true but I kinda have a hunch it could be because of the tariffs. These are the only figures that have been released after all of that stuff has gone down

[oscars_dinos]

looks like pnso is having a sale on there amazon, but the two most recent figures are charging for shipping regardless if you have prime (usually I never pay for shipping since it covers that) is anyone on the same boat as I am hoping that they'll change that? I feel like they are just doing that since they are new figures

I have also being waiting for them to be available with free shipping. Not sure if this is true but I kinda have a hunch it could be because of the tariffs. These are the only figures that have been released after all of that stuff has gone down

that's what I was fearing but it makes sense since for as far as I'm aware I think pnso only has a office space in New York but no manufacturer in the us... I'm going to wait and I guess miss out on the sale till the next figure is realesed. I do think that shipping is usually like this for newer figures so maybe prime will eventually cover these figures down the line.

[Shane]

that's what I was fearing but it makes sense since for as far as I'm aware I think pnso only has a office space in New York but no manufacturer in the us... I'm going to wait and I guess miss out on the sale till the next figure is realesed. I do think that shipping is usually like this for newer figures so maybe prime will eventually cover these figures down the line.

Virtually no toy figurine companies have manufacturers in the US, not even US based companies, but certainly not China based companies, and definitely not at the level of detail of PNSO.

The only toys currently made in the US at all are very simple children's toys (minimal paint or no paint at all, simple shapes/designs, sometimes wooden toys like blocks, mostly toys for very young kids), or very small batch boutique or custom toys (think someone 3D printing or making molds in their garage and making a very limited number of hand-painted figurines).

Simply put, the infrastructure to make figurines with detailed sculpting and high level paint applications at scale does not exist in the USA.

[Primeval12]

Who's on sale?? I don't see it