Horizon T-rex recast

[empire3569]

Hello all, first off, I know there is a big thread about knock-off figures and most people (myself included) are opposed to them. Anyway, while browsing Ebay I came across this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Movie-Jurassic-Park-Dinosaur-T-rex-11in-Vinyl-Model-Kit/161939462440?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D16317cb7620f4f9c8539144f0491c73a%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D120831367036

It is listed as a recast (of what I am assuming of the Horizon JP T-rex). So the question I pose to everyone here: is it unethical to purchase a recast of a company that no longer is in business/makes the original product? And, on the off chance anyone has bought one of these, is the detail comparable to the original?

[Blade-of-the-Moon]

The ethical ramifications are really up to the individual. I personally think if a company no longer exists, no one is hurt by recasting a kit by them. It's really just keeping it alive. Now quality, I bought one years ago, not sure if it was this place or not, but the detail was slightly softer, the vinyl more oily and flexible, but it worked alright for me. I was modifying it anyway.

[reinier zwanink]

I also think like blade on this point
Recasting is a bad this but this is a long gone thing so nobody is hurt
I got a brachio some time ago (not knowing its a recast)
And this was in a bad shape
The entire body was wrapped and the head section was smallet than the neck
So this one needed a ton of love

[Viking Spawn]

I wish someone would sell a fully built/painted vinyl figure of this!  I would be all over it!

[tyrantqueen]

No, I don't support it. Even though Horizon is out of business, you are supporting recasters by buying these kits. They will go onto bootlegging other kits, possibly ones that actually are in production now.

And, on the off chance anyone has bought one of these, is the detail comparable to the original?

No, they are probably using molds of molds of molds of molds by this point, so the quality would be much inferior.

Horizon was killed by the recasters and I will not support the recasting industry. This makes me wonder if people who bought these OOP Horizons, would they hypothetically also buy Shane Foulkes' or David Krentz' kits if they were recast? Many of Krentz' and Foulkes' kits are discontinued by this point. Or would they make an exception because there is a name and a person behind those sculpts? Seems pretty hypocritical.

Why would they object to ripping off a current artist if they are okay with Horizon? Just because Horizon is long gone doesn't mean that there wasn't an artist behind their sculpts, probably putting their heart and soul into creating them. Double standard if you ask me.

So yes, all unauthorising recasting = bad.

[Doug Watson]

No, I don't support it. Even though Horizon is out of business, you are supporting recasters by buying these kits. They will go onto bootlegging other kits, possibly ones that actually are in production now.

TQ makes an excellent point here. If you check the other sales from these sellers they often have knock off kits from other companies some of which are still in production. Buying any kit from them just encourages them to knock off more kits or figures. In the end they may put one of your favourite companies out of business just like they did with Horizon. Remember knock off companies don't create anything new only legit companies do.

As for quality they didn't have access to the original moulds so they have taken moulds from a Horizon cast so the detail will be inferior. It will also be smaller than the original due to shrinkage. I remember seeing a side by side comparison years ago on the web or in a magazine and the knock off was significantly smaller, had softer detail and also had pin holes in the surface. I can't find it now but I did find comments about the size difference, that is common knowledge.

P.S. If a company was to come along and buy the old moulds from Horizon if they still exist and pay all the licensing fees that would be totally different and I could support that.

[DinoLord]

Ethical issues aside (TQ has covered them wonderfully), it's definitely worth seeking out the original Horizon kits for quality reasons. Built up properly they are true things of beauty. Meanwhile the recasts tend to be 'soft' looking, with the details not very crisp. If you are going to go through the effort of building up a model or the cost of commissioning a professional to do so, might as well start with a quality kit.

[Simon]

*SNIP*

Horizon was killed by the recasters and I will not support the recasting industry.

Actually Horizon was killed off by its decision to pay exorbitant licensing fees for the JP logo, and then by the lack of sufficient interest in its JP models due to their high prices.  They found out the hard way that just having the official JP logo did not guarantee interest in a niche garage kit hobby from the general public.  The recasting of Horizon kits only started a few years after they went under.

*SNIP*
So yes, all unauthorising recasting = bad.

Agree with you 100% there.

[tyrantqueen]

Actually Horizon was killed off by its decision to pay exorbitant licensing fees for the JP logo, and then by the lack of sufficient interest in its JP models due to their high prices.  They found out the hard way that just having the official JP logo did not guarantee interest in a niche garage kit hobby from the general public.  The recasting of Horizon kits only started a few years after they went under.

Thank you for the correction

[stargatedalek]

I'm with Blade on this one, I have no moral qualms with recasting of kits/figures that are no longer under legitimate production. It is of course a fine line. And there's a stark difference between someone recasting some discontinued kits for relatively decent prices in their garage to supplement their income and spread them around to people who otherwise might not get the original at all, versus someone who recasts for a living.

[DinoLord]

And there's a stark difference between someone recasting some discontinued kits for relatively decent prices in their garage to supplement their income and spread them around to people who otherwise might not get the original at all, versus someone who recasts for a living.

Unfortunately almost all the recasts you will find on eBay come from the latter type...

[tyrantqueen]

Stealing is still stealing.

[Viking Spawn]

No, I don't support it. Even though Horizon is out of business, you are supporting recasters by buying these kits. They will go onto bootlegging other kits, possibly ones that actually are in production now.

TQ makes an excellent point here. If you check the other sales from these sellers they often have knock off kits from other companies some of which are still in production. Buying any kit from them just encourages them to knock off more kits or figures. In the end they may put one of your favourite companies out of business just like they did with Horizon. Remember knock off companies don't create anything new only legit companies do.

As for quality they didn't have access to the original moulds so they have taken moulds from a Horizon cast so the detail will be inferior. It will also be smaller than the original due to shrinkage. I remember seeing a side by side comparison years ago on the web or in a magazine and the knock off was significantly smaller, had softer detail and also had pin holes in the surface. I can't find it now but I did find comments about the size difference, that is common knowledge.

P.S. If a company was to come along and buy the old moulds from Horizon if they still exist and pay all the licensing fees that would be totally different and I could support that.

And this explains why these "knock offs" are inferior in quality.  That's interesting to know.

[Doug Watson]

Actually Horizon was killed off by its decision to pay exorbitant licensing fees for the JP logo, and then by the lack of sufficient interest in its JP models due to their high prices.  They found out the hard way that just having the official JP logo did not guarantee interest in a niche garage kit hobby from the general public.  The recasting of Horizon kits only started a few years after they went under.

Horizon made many more kits than just the JP  kits, they paid for licensing for DC, Marvel, Universal and many more and that is what legitimate businesses do. I followed their demise in the pages of Modeler's Resource and Amazing Figure Modeler and while it is possible that recasting wasn't the only reason for them shutting down it certainly played a part as well as the downturn in kit sales in the late 90s. Horizon was owned by a Japanese family that moved to LA to start their business. From what I remember the owner was a private man and when they closed it was done with little fanfare or comment. They just packed it in and moved back to Japan. The original owner of GEOmetric was not as private and was also a lawyer and has been very public in his comments. Thankfully some of his comments are still on the web.
Here are some samples and if you are interested I have included the source link for the full articles he does a much better job than me in explaining how recasting kills small companies like Horizon and GEOmetric.

This is a bit from an interview while the company was still in business where he explains the high cost of the kits. Expenses that the recasters do not face:

Interview with George Stephenson of GEOmetric Design Kit Builders Magazine 1997 http://www.gremlins.com/kitbuilders/recasts.html
3) Don't you think the current standard pricing that has kits automatically starting at $100 and up just fuels the recasting market? Your average modeler would much rather go home from a show with two or three recast kits for his money than just one original?

"If kit producers were selling 1000 kits of each subject, or even 500, they could lower those prices. The fact is, most of the producers are not selling as many as 150 kits of a character. 150 kits is a good number of sales for a typical garage kit. From all of the people in this hobby I have gotten to know, it is obvious that few garage kit companies are selling 150 copies of their resin kits. If the company is using good sculptors and providing packaging with box art and instructions and paying royalties, it is very difficult to make any money on 150 kits. . .even at $100 per kit. Do the math:"

Gross Sales     $15,000 (150 kits x $100)
Total Costs     $7860
Original Sculpture     $3000 (very cheap if you use the guys we use)
Licensing Guarantee     $2500 (not many good licenses at this price)
Original Box art and instructions     $250 (very cheap for good artists)
Box art and instruction copies     $150 ($1 per kit x 150 kits)
Boxes     $150 ($1 per kit x 150 kits)
Resin     $1125 ($7.50 each 1/6 scale kit with small base)
Molds     $400 (per five gallons of RTV)
Labor for moldmaking     $95 (minimum wage of $4.75 x 20 hours)
Labor for resin pouring     $190 (minimum wage of 4.75 x 40 hours)
Net     $7140

This is from an online article from the Clubhouse (not by George) after the demise of Horizon, Geometric and Screamin, the second paragraph answers people like Star who think there is no harm in buying a recast after the company has gone under.

http://theclubhouse1.net/museum/RECAST.htm
By Sean Hughto, John Diaz & Mark Vantine
"The scourge of recasting has contributed to the demise of some very big name licensed kit producers, such as Screamin, Horizon, and Geometric, just to name a few. It has also driven away plenty of small resin producers – too many to name. It has caused some of the greatest sculptors, such as Mike Hill, to stop producing garage kits. The loss of these and other producers means less for you, the modeler, to choose from. It also hurts the hobbies great magazines like Model Maniacs, Amazing Figure Modeler, and Modeler's Resource which rely on advertisers in order to bring you the great articles on building and painting kits as well as reports on the newest offerings."

"Some folks think that there's no harm to buying a recast of an out-of-production kit. Unfortunately, it's still wrong. The original producer could always reintroduce the kit himself or sell the rights to another legitimate producer who can reintroduce the kit. But, no one will do a second run of nicely made kits if the market is already flooded with cheap recasts. Also, beware when a re-caster tells you a kit is out of production. It often is not, but rather still readily available form the original producer."

This is from a forum called the Universal Monster Army 2012 where George joins in on a discussion on recasts. As in the other cases he goes into to more detail than I have included here and worth reading. Of particular interest is where he talks about how big the companies were. People think these were big corporations but at the best of times GEO was himself and his partner, same goes for Horizon it was five people from what I understand:

Quotes from response by George Stephenson on the UMA Forum 2012
http://www.universalmonsterarmy.com/forum/index.php?topic=17285.0

"I explained to the author that vinyl recasts did serious damage to our business; that supporting folks who do recasting is supporting the same folks who helped drive my partner out of the GK business and played a significant role in my decision to sell GEOmetric (my baby!) and return to the full-time practice of law.

So, I contacted the author of the original post and explained the mistake in his assumption that Horizon, Screamin' GEOmetric and Billiken were" larger professional companies" that he compared to Aurora.  It is obvious that a lot of folks think of the old GEOmetric as some kind of GK conglomerate with a work crew, sales staff, marketing department, customer service division and a receptionist.  In our best years, GEOmetric actually had all that in my partner and me... just the two of us with an occasional friend helping out when we were too busy! We were not some large professional company but a couple of guys working our tails off in rented warehouse space where we tried to eek out a living by producing licensed resin and vinyl kits.  Our friends at Screamin' and Horizon were no different.  We weren't AMT/ERTL or Revell-Monogram.  We scratched and fought for every penny we could make and the only thing that separated us from the typical GK producer was that we did it full time, produced vinyl kits, purchased licenses and pedaled our stuff at hobby industry trade shows. 

Many of us have been involved in the hobby as collectors, producers, artists for many years and have a lot more experience with the recasting issue.  I've been involved in the hobby for almost 30 years.  But there are lots of new folks who have no idea what the big deal is about recasts, about how badly it suppresses the hobby.  We all know sculptors and producers who fled GK in disgust because their kits were being recast by folks right here in the U.S.  A number of resin kit producers, producers of high quality resin kits who were driven out of business by lower priced recasts of their kits.  Losing a handful of sales to recasters can be a significant loss to a small producer.  And, if you think the demise of GK leaders like Horizon and Screamin' had nothing to do with vinyl recasts of their kits, you are mistaken. "

I would encourage anyone interested to check out the rest of the articles in those links since these of the words of someone who loved the hobby left his job as a lawyer to start a small business with a partner only to lose it all due to recasters.

And a word of caution, I notice the OP's avatar has a Rebor and Papo in it. Well do an eBay search and see which toy companies are the most targeted right now. I am seeing tons of Papos and now Rebor is getting hit. If you can believe Rebor's old rep he said they weren't even making any money at it well imagine how well that business model will work if recasts start cutting into the little they make.
I tip Safari off when ever I find a knock off of our pieces but unfortunately because these guys work out of protected countries there is little that they can do about it. I just found out someone is selling knock offs of my acrocanthosaurus so that is now 4 of mine that I know are being stolen.

[empire3569]

Thank you to everyone who replied; Doug those were some great sources, very interesting to read.

[reinier zwanink]

Yes
Thanks watson for posting thouse articles
Have not looked at that this way and its a very goid point

I would never buy a cheap cipy when the reall thing is still around
But this  does make me thunk again

[pylraster]

There's really a significant difference between this and the original. This one looks all warped especially around the head.

[Doug Watson]

Thank you to everyone who replied; Doug those were some great sources, very interesting to read.

You are welcome, in the end it is up to you. I got them all in the boxes after Horizon went under and in most cases paid more than retail on eBay but if you really work at it and scour eBay daily sometimes you can snag a deal. The going asking price for the T rex seems to be $199.99 with Buy it Now, but sometimes if you notice that a seller has been relisting again and again you can get them to take much less. I wanted a second Spitter and the ones on eBay were asking $100 or more. I made a $70 offer on one and it was accepted. Around the same time someone snagged one when it listed at BIN for $19.99 but I missed it. That coincidently is how much I paid for my first Spitter. So if you really keep an eye open there are still deals to be had especially on ones where the box is missing. In the end if you saw an original compared to your recast I think you would want the original but that is me. You may already know this but also search for misspelled listings like Jurrasic Park or Horison sometimes you can get one that got by spellcheck and no one else may see it.

Now if you really want to have something special and are willing to save you pennies Chronicle Collectibles has been strongly hinting that they will bring out a copy of the 1/5 Stan Winston female T rex. They already offer the bulls 1/5 head from the original mould painted for $700 so you know it won't be cheap but man I would love that.
Here is a shot of the full figure with the bulls head on it.

[empire3569]

Thank you to everyone who replied; Doug those were some great sources, very interesting to read.

You are welcome, in the end it is up to you. I got them all in the boxes after Horizon went under and in most cases paid more than retail on eBay but if you really work at it and scour eBay daily sometimes you can snag a deal. The going asking price for the T rex seems to be $199.99 with Buy it Now, but sometimes if you notice that a seller has been relisting again and again you can get them to take much less. I wanted a second Spitter and the ones on eBay were asking $100 or more. I made a $70 offer on one and it was accepted. Around the same time someone snagged one when it listed at BIN for $19.99 but I missed it. That coincidently is how much I paid for my first Spitter. So if you really keep an eye open there are still deals to be had especially on ones where the box is missing. In the end if you saw an original compared to your recast I think you would want the original but that is me. You may already know this but also search for misspelled listings like Jurrasic Park or Horison sometimes you can get one that got by spellcheck and no one else may see it.

Now if you really want to have something special and are willing to save you pennies Chronicle Collectibles has been strongly hinting that they will bring out a copy of the 1/5 Stan Winston female T rex. They already offer the bulls 1/5 head from the original mould painted for $700 so you know it won't be cheap but man I would love that.
Here is a shot of the full figure with the bulls head on it.

That would be pretty neat to own, but far too much for my budget! I would really like to own the T-rex kit to go with the SnapTite Velociraptor kit I just had professionally built, but am in no hurry so for now I will just keep checking Ebay. I posted a wanted ad in the classifieds as well. The other Horizon kits are very nice as well, do you have pics of yours all built up?

[Halichoeres]

This was a fascinating read, thanks for the contributions, especially Doug and tq. I'm not really a kit builder, but this all applies with equal force to finished models and toys. We're all buying art, after all, and it seems just that the money goes to the artists or those who hired the artists.