Edmontosaurus had HOOVES!

[suspsy]

The "Dakota" Edmontosaurus specimen's beautifully preserved forelimb shows that it possessed a hoof-like structure. Thereby potentially rendering all existing hadrosaur figures inaccurate, including the upcoming Wild Safari Edmontosaurus. Not that that's in any way the fault of Safari or Doug Watson, of course!

Sorry, I'm on my phone right now, so I'll modify the images later tonight so that they can be viewed in the thread.

Untitled by Suspsy Three, on Flickr

Untitled by Suspsy Three, on Flickr

[Jose S.M.]

Oh that's interesting. Not much unexpected but still interesting.i wonder how future representations of hadrosaurs will look with hooves. Maaaybe a safari lambeosaurus or olorotitan could show it in the next few years 

[Ravonium]

I guess that's one less thing that originally evolved in mammals...

[Faelrin]

Wow what an amazing discovery that literally just changed the game yet again majorly for how these creatures should be restored, and gives us yet another closer glimpse at how these amazing creatures would have looked like in the flesh.

And, dang all the more reason I hope to see a hadrosaurid series for the Beasts of the Mesozoic someday, if not more species produced from Safari Ltd and/or CollectA in the future. They have so much fossil evidence these days, they would make for some fantastically accurate figures.

I guess though, that the most recent hadrosaurid figures are not too far off from being wrong with their merged digits covered in a fleshy manus, as simple alterations could be made to them to give them hooves (assuming anyone would be up to task with altering their figures). Although part of me wonders if it would be possible for Safari Ltd to have their existing hadrosaurid sculpts revised at some point.

And wow, those images of the fossilized remains are worth looking up close. Even though this animal has been long dead and extinct, the extant of preservation is just truly stunning (and yes I was aware of this specimen for a while, but this is probably the best look I've had at some of the extant of preservation in this much detail).

Edit: Also anyone else noticing those interesting markings on the limb? They don't look like scutes at all, as some of the scales overlap on them. Could those possibly have something to do with the animal's coloration? I know some fossil specimens are preserved so well one can make out the coloration in the fossil with the naked eye (Psittacosaurus, Microraptor, Sinosauropteryx, etc). Unless this is an artifact of how it was preserved perhaps?

[suspsy]

Given how quickly CollectA has jumped on paleontological discoveries in the past, namely their three Spinosaurus figures, Borealopelta, etc., I wouldn't be at all shocked if they produced a hooved Edmontosaurus in 2021, or perhaps even one or two additional hadrosaurs with hooves.

[DinoToyCollector]

Oh that's very interesting! The hands always looked "hoof-ish", so we have some kind of confirmation on this. I like this discovery a lot.
I think I will try this on my Tethyshadros model.

[Faelrin]

After looking at this further and comparing previous skeletals of hadrosaurids, from the looks of it the previous understanding of the digits is also outdated too beyond the fleshy mitten thing?


Edit: Might be worth comparing this specimen with this one. Kind of reminds me of how we once thought Microraptor had a fan tail but more evidence showed it didn't and had something different altogether.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmontosaurus_mummy_AMNH_5060

[stargatedalek]

Microraptor did have a tail fan, just not a round one.

That this was just sitting in storage for well over 20 years not described or even photographed is probably the biggest takeaway here. Some mind boggling incompetence on display. Makes you wonder how few paleontologists actually care about reconstruction and improving our understanding of extinct life versus just cataloging bones for a paycheck. I'm reminded of the brief discussion of this a few years ago after one of the consultants for the Carnegie figures openly admitted to not knowing or caring about life construction and just fudged information to get paid.

Hadrosaurs having pseudo hooves is hardly news, though some absolute confirmation for at least one genus is a good thing.

[Funk]

It is rather unexoected, since most restorations either show three hooves or no hooves.

Also, confirms that no dinosaurs had claws past digit 3.

[triceratops83]

Now if they could find evidence for a feathery mane. "My little duckbill, my little duckbill..."

[Doug Watson]

The "Dakota" Edmontosaurus specimen's beautifully preserved forelimb shows that it possessed a hoof-like structure. Thereby potentially rendering all existing hadrosaur figures inaccurate, including the upcoming Wild Safari Edmontosaurus. Not that that's in any way the fault of Safari or Doug Watson, of course!

Well this is annoying, back when I did my Gryposaurus I was in contact with Dr Phillip Manning and he graciously provided photos and descriptions of the underside of this manus from MRF-03 and I asked him about the presence of hooves on hadrosaurs but at the time the dorsal surface of the manus hadn't been revealed so he only knew it had a fleshy pad on the underside like a dog's under the unguals. He also referenced the Senckenberg mummy hand which also didn't show evidence of any hooves. I of course sculpted my current Edmontosaurus in 2018 so I can't see the future, if I could I would have won the lottery by now and would be retired. I guess since this is a younger species of Edmontosaurus it could be that E. regalis didn't have a hooves but that is probably unlikely.

[Halichoeres]

Microraptor did have a tail fan, just not a round one.

That this was just sitting in storage for well over 20 years not described or even photographed is probably the biggest takeaway here. Some mind boggling incompetence on display. Makes you wonder how few paleontologists actually care about reconstruction and improving our understanding of extinct life versus just cataloging bones for a paycheck. I'm reminded of the brief discussion of this a few years ago after one of the consultants for the Carnegie figures openly admitted to not knowing or caring about life construction and just fudged information to get paid.

Hadrosaurs having pseudo hooves is hardly news, though some absolute confirmation for at least one genus is a good thing.

It was in storage, but that side of the block hadn't been prepared. I don't think that's incompetence. It's true that most paleontologists are only passingly concerned with life restorations, but that's mostly because they find other questions more interesting.


A big difference between this finding and, say, feathers on Yutyrannus, is that Edmontosaurus is a very derived weirdo, so it offers only a little information on the condition of earlier or distantly related hadrosaurs. If the osteology of the manus of other hadrosaurs is indistinguishable, then that certainly increases the probability that they had something like this hoof. But it's really hard to exclude the possibility that this was a particular specialization of this taxon, given its uninformative position in the phylogeny of ornithischians.

[dutchdinolover]

Wow! That is a exciting discovery and a wonderful specimen 😍

[Doug Watson]

It was in storage, but that side of the block hadn't been prepared. I don't think that's incompetence. It's true that most paleontologists are only passingly concerned with life restorations, but that's mostly because they find other questions more interesting.

I agree whole heartedly @Halichoeres that it is not incompetence, I worked with and around dinosaur fossil preparators and one big factor in the amount of preparation done on specimens is cost. Some fossils are incased in incredibly hard matrix and it takes a lot of time and money to do the work so unless there is some clue that there is some great find awaiting often they just sit on the shelf in the jacket. In this case other priorities may have come first or maybe they were just waiting for the funds.

P.S. The sad truth there could very well be many more skin impressions locked away in field jackets due to cost of preparation alone. In the old days and I guess today as well the main determination of a new species is based on the skull so often only the skull is prepared. At the Canadian Museum of Nature there are shelves full of post cranial material still sitting unprepared in the field jackets since the species has already been confirmed for the specimen by the skull. It is simply a matter of cost since it is a lot cheaper to prepare the skull of an Edmontosaurus compared to the rest of the animal. So if the skin impressions were on the underside of the slab or buried in matrix there is a good chance they weren't spotted at collection. A lot of those post cranial slabs have dates on them going back to the early 1900s. Vagaceratops sat unprepared and undescribed for decades because when it was collected it was thought to have been another Chasmosaurus belli. It only was discovered because Dr Holmes was studying post cranial material of ceratopsians for limb posture and the frill was incorporated into the post cranial slab. Museums only have so much money after all.

[stargatedalek]

My bad. I had been given the impression it was already removed and prepared circa 2004.

[Funk]

Maybe time to compare with the old AMNH E. annectens mummy:

It seems that the digit 2 claw could not have been predicted based on this specimen, since the integument is not preserved there.

That leaves us with the large hoove. Could it be that it just wasn't preserved properly here (the tip of the ungual is just bone here)?

[Libraraptor]

To me it´s always fascinating to see that we are slowly drawing near to the real fleshy look of many dinosaur species. This Edmontosaurus "hooves" don´t come as a big surprise; to my knowledge scientists have always been assuming hoove-like feet on Iguanodontids and Hadrosaurids. But it´s great to have it confirmed, at least concerning one species.

[HD-man]

Well this is annoying, back when I did my Gryposaurus I was in contact with Dr Phillip Manning and he graciously provided photos and descriptions of the underside of this manus from MRF-03 and I asked him about the presence of hooves on hadrosaurs but at the time the dorsal surface of the manus hadn't been revealed so he only knew it had a fleshy pad on the underside like a dog's under the unguals. He also referenced the Senckenberg mummy hand which also didn't show evidence of any hooves. I of course sculpted my current Edmontosaurus in 2018 so I can't see the future, if I could I would have won the lottery by now and would be retired. I guess since this is a younger species of Edmontosaurus it could be that E. regalis didn't have a hooves but that is probably unlikely.

I wouldn't worry about it yet. I'm obviously no expert, but the AMNH mummy seems to contradict the above interpretation of Dakota: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edmontosaurus_mummy_AMNH_5060_manus_Osborn_1912.png

[ZoPteryx]

What an incredible discovery, can't wait to see it fully described!  I personally find the "spur" on digit II by far the most surprising feature.

Although apparently, there is another...

Senckenberg specimen via Joschua Knuppe


From this twitter thread:
https://twitter.com/Pete_Buchholz/status/1184879207245139968

Certainly defies the AMNH specimen.  "First, these epidermal impressions appear to show that the phalanges, or digits did not terminate in exposed nails or hoofs, and were not freely movable and independent. It is possible that this appearance is deceptive, that the integument was loose and drawn over the extremities of the phalanges, that there were nails or hoofs present which have been mechanically removed. This theory is tenable but it is not supported by the condition of the manus as presented." (Osborn 1912)

[Funk]

Certainly defies the AMNH specimen.

That specimen doesn't have skin on digit 2 and the tip of digit 3, though, so it could just be a preservation artefact.